Noob with a wisteria

[Andrew Robson]

You can buy a much better wisteria at a garden center, or like Brian said, go collect one yourself.

My dad and I were lucky to find one with a huge trunk at a garden center last spring, and have been working it over with Michael Hagedorn in our study group. Mike has some great posts about wisteria bonsai, check them out here: http://crataegus.com/tag/wisteria/

 

[rockm]

I always smile when I see a southerner (or most anyone in the U.S.) BUYING a wisteria, much less growing one from seed to use as bonsai.

This species is rampantly, aggressively OUT OF CONTROL in the Southern states and up into more Northern states. It covers wide swaths of trees in my area and other suburban/rural areas of the country. Some counties around here will actually pay you to help get rid of it. HUGE to BEASTLY HUGE (like 15 inches across) trunks can be located and dug up, chopped back top and bottom and crammed into a bonsai pot. There is no need to buy or grow them from seed, which is counterproductive to their bonsai training anyway.

Collecting big ones can be tricky, as they tend to have large sections die off, but smaller (and small is relative with wisteria) trunks can be collected easily. Any trunk under two inches in diameter isn't worth the trouble. They are simply not big enough to work visually as their leaves and flowers (if you get any) overwhelm the trunk and can actually pull a tall pot over in the wind. Forget spindly trunks, get one that's three or four inches in diameter at least.

I look for collectible wisteria beginning in mid April to mid-May, when they're blooming. You can see the tell-tale blue of their blossoms all through woodlots, junk yards, out of the way trashy vacant lots etc. Collecting a 3-7 inch diameter trunk isn't hard--don't worry about how high the vine goes, you will only need the first two to four feet of it -- the rest is chopped off. The wisteria below were only a few of the vines growing underneath a parking garage...

 

[Ceijay]

I always smile when I see a southerner (or most anyone in the U.S.) BUYING a wisteria, much less growing one from seed to use as bonsai.

Well I can agree with you about buying one but collecting large stumps of any tree is easier said than done. Plus I'm not even sure I have the skills to collect something that large.

Also this wisteria was never intended for bonsai which is why it was grown from a seed.

I suppose for now I'll just keep letting it do it's thing.

And again thanks for helping out a noob!

 

[rockm]

Collecting a wisteria requires no real previous experience beyond getting a bit of fibrous feeder root. If you're after a smaller one, up to two inches you can probably pull it out with your hands and get enough roots for it to survive. Collecting one saves you ten years of waiting for a seed grown plant to become mature enough to produce blooms.

 

[rockm]

If you plan on letting it do it's thing in a container, you will have to wait very very long time for it to bloom, if it ever does. I know you've said you can't plant it in the ground, but consider what containerizing it is costing you in terms of growth and developmen.t

In the landscape, this plant is notorious for pulling siding off of houses in a season and knocking buildings off foundations over time. It is extremely aggressive in growth in the ground. Less so the further north you go.

In a pot you have severely restricted its ability to grow (Which is one of the principles behind bonsai--root containerization limits root run and by extension, top growth). That's why at six years old, the trunk is only half an inch to an inch in diameter. In the ground, a six year old trunk could be 5-10 times that. All wisteria bonsai are started from older garden plants, not seed. That is done to get an interesting trunk AND the maturity and root development that pushes blossoms. Wisteria without blooms are just annoying .

 

[garywood]

If you plan on letting it do it's thing in a container, you will have to wait very very long time for it to bloom, if it ever does. I know you've said you can't plant it in the ground, but consider what containerizing it is costing you in terms of growth and developmen.t

In the landscape, this plant is notorious for pulling siding off of houses in a season and knocking buildings off foundations over time. It is extremely aggressive in growth in the ground. Less so the further north you go.

In a pot you have severely restricted its ability to grow (Which is one of the principles behind bonsai--root containerization limits root run and by extension, top growth). That's why at six years old, the trunk is only half an inch to an inch in diameter. In the ground, a six year old trunk could be 5-10 times that. All wisteria bonsai are started from older garden plants, not seed. That is done to get an interesting trunk AND the maturity and root development that pushes blossoms. Wisteria without blooms are just annoyingView attachment 89372 .

Stop badgering the witness ;-)

 

[rockm]

I will cease and desist.

 

[Cadillactaste]

If you plan on letting it do it's thing in a container, you will have to wait very very long time for it to bloom, if it ever does. I know you've said you can't plant it in the ground, but consider what containerizing it is costing you in terms of growth and developmen.t

In the landscape, this plant is notorious for pulling siding off of houses in a season and knocking buildings off foundations over time. It is extremely aggressive in growth in the ground. Less so the further north you go.

In a pot you have severely restricted its ability to grow (Which is one of the principles behind bonsai--root containerization limits root run and by extension, top growth). That's why at six years old, the trunk is only half an inch to an inch in diameter. In the ground, a six year old trunk could be 5-10 times that. All wisteria bonsai are started from older garden plants, not seed. That is done to get an interesting trunk AND the maturity and root development that pushes blossoms. Wisteria without blooms are just annoyingView attachment 89372 .

Unless it's an American variety...which...would be the reason for the thin trunk...but, they bloom earlier than the other varieties.

 

[sorce]

Stop badgering the witness ;-

I will cease and desist.

Screw that!
This is great stuff!

I think CJ should go digging.....

Until he witnesses a badger!

To the parking garage!

Sorce

 

[Ceijay]

If you plan on letting it do it's thing in a container, you will have to wait very very long time for it to bloom, if it ever does. I know you've said you can't plant it in the ground, but consider what containerizing it is costing you in terms of growth and developmen.t

In the landscape, this plant is notorious for pulling siding off of houses in a season and knocking buildings off foundations over time. It is extremely aggressive in growth in the ground. Less so the further north you go.

In a pot you have severely restricted its ability to grow (Which is one of the principles behind bonsai--root containerization limits root run and by extension, top growth). That's why at six years old, the trunk is only half an inch to an inch in diameter. In the ground, a six year old trunk could be 5-10 times that. All wisteria bonsai are started from older garden plants, not seed. That is done to get an interesting trunk AND the maturity and root development that pushes blossoms. Wisteria without blooms are just annoyingView attachment 89372 .

Cool that's nice to know they are easy to collect, I will keep that in mind if I ever get the chance.

My only hopes of putting it in the ground is that my fiance and I may be moving into our first home but that is still a long way off. I use to have it in a very very small pot until about a year and a half ago and ever since it has shown much improvement.

Is there anything else I can do to keep it healthy? I fertilizer it more and plan to give it better soil this spring. All these types of changes I made after reading information here so please don't think I don't consider all of it.

As for the collecting I am VERY excited to start that. I would have started last year but it was much to late for me to try when I had the confidence to try. Probably won't be able to get a W. since I don't see anything I would be able to collect in my area but you can't swing a dead tree without hitting a loblolly pine or an oak. I've even seen people use Virginian creeper here.

Anyway that's enough for now. Send me some collection links if you got 'em.

 

[sorce]

Don't miss parts 2 and 3.

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

@Ceijay - we all have our personal "pet project" plants that because of one reason or another are not the quickest or right species or "grow the right way" to do as bonsai. So I will assume you will keep this one and keep toying with turning it into bonsai. Given that I would use a repeating cycle of letting it grow wild and then chopping back hard. The larger you can let it grow while in its pot the quicker the trunk will thicken up. The harder you chop it back, the more movement and interest you can put into your trunk. I'm in a climate that is cold enough that wisteria don't grow very wild, so I would do the hard chop backs maybe every 3rd year. You are in MS, so you might do it every other or every year. Hedge pruning slows growth, for fastest development, give up on hedge pruning. Let it run wild. Stick a trellis in the pot, or site it where it can climb up something. You will regularly be cutting off almost all the growth, so it won't be permanently climbing what ever you let it climb on.

In spring, chop this baby short, and I mean very short. Maybe 4 inches above the roots. If your roots are an inch under the soil, chop it 3 inches above the soil. It will sit a while, several weeks, then suddenly back bud and grow. Let the new branches from the trunk run wild this year. Let them go as much as 10 feet or more if you can. You want the new shoots to develop woody tissue and thickness. Following spring choose "the one" branch that you think can make the next section of trunk, chop off the others. Reduce it back to a stick, then let grow out again. That new segment of trunk can be at a sharp angle from the first segment. This is good, you want sharp bends. As the trunk develops thickness the bends will soften and loose the sharp angular appearance. Even a 90 degree angle in a 1/4 inch branch will look soft by the time the branch gets to 2 inches. Shorten this segment to a length shorter than the first. So if your first segment is 4 inches, the second segment should be shortened to less than 4 inches, 2 or 3 inches would be good. Then let it all grow out again. Following spring select and repeat. Each new segment added to the trunk should be shorter than the previous. As long as growth is vigorous each summer you can keep repeating the process. Give it a year off if growth is weak. Eventually you will have a trunk with curves, bends and interest. And it will slowly increase in diameter. When the trunk gets to 3 or 4 inches in diameter - it will be time to think about a bonsai pot. But not until then. So there will be years in this process.

As roots fill the nursery can, when needed move it to larger and larger nursery cans. Each time you repot locate the nebari and prune roots to create a nice radial spread of roots. Eventually move it to the largest nursery pot you can handle. Then prune roots in later repotting to keep it in that pot. That will slow development, but you have to keep it in your limits.

This is the slow route, it may be 10 to 20 years before it can be considered "bonsai" but since you are keeping it, may as well grow it into bonsai.

This is essentially the basic build a deciduous tree from scratch. Change details based on the species being used, but the general idea works.

 

[Ceijay]

Very sorry to be replying so late but I have recently been extremely distracted by life. Anyway @sorce I have finally gotten around to watching both parts of your post and while it was excruciatingly boring to watch they were VERY informative. The videos gave me a bit of confidence that I DO in fact know a tiny bit of what I'm doing, on the other hand I am partially confused as to how I should move forward in bonsia.

I find myself very conflicted with a lot of the information given. I simply just don't know where to start bonsai. I had very high hopes for a positive response for this plant when I shared it thinking I could learn some very basic skills but it seems I was wrong. What should I do? How do I move forward without access to high quality stock or collected material?

I selected this plant to share because it is one of my oldest and most favorite plants ( which is a very shallow reason to present it as bonsia material ) but I also have a very clear vision of a tree in this plant already. I know it is not the most optimal plant and in comparison to the art displayed here typically it is garbage but it's what I have access to.

ugh...I feel very defeated. What should I do...other then wait for winter to f***k off??????????
My creative process is extremely agitating ( even to myself ) so I apologize in advance...it may get weird.

 

[sorce]

I had a dream last night we were working on a tree together. I think it's because I saw some of those house label things the other day.

Let me first point out.....
You said you had high hopes....
That, set you up to feel info conflicted.
It's all the same info....
Let that thing grow!
You are young....these are just years!

For me, making the best out of those years will start this spring when you...

Get that thing out of that pot....
Put it in sifted Napa Floordry 8822.
In a colander or homemade screen sided basket....about the same width, half the height.

Toss the small trunk....or plant them together accordingly, spreading good roots out, since the tops don't matter yet.
Work the roots hard and well, lay them out for a good future. I'd use the board trick.

Start watering it everyday, no matter if its drying, and feed it every other day with a dilute balanced Miracle grow liquid or other, and once a week at full strength.

By midsummer or thereabouts, you may have to clean your pants, cuz you may mess them witnessing the growth you'll get. That itself will be enough to shake any feeling of defeat! F defeated!

With that thing on a good healthy path...

Get to that parking garage!
Hit the block. Knock a door.
Hit the web, call a store!

There is material out there! I will Google earth your town and give you phone numbers to call if you want....addresses to check out....patches of land to find the owner of. Why are you limited here?

If you find a nicer/bigger wisteria to work, you can start fiddling with the other all you want, instead of growing it out, or you can continue growing it out.
Hell, they said big cut don't heal well, making small cuts will take longer to grow it, but you can grow it healed, and cut it now! Using small sacrifice branches to add girth, that's busy work!

Get a cheap 1gl juniper for 5bucks!
Slap some wire on it. Repeat as many times as budget allows!
That's the fastest path to having something to do, and feeling accomplished.

The more detailed you can lay out your scenario, the better we can help....
What gives?

No sad! Happy!

Sorce

 

[Ceijay]

@sorce Your posts are always so positive, and you are my favorite. That being said I am still unsure if I should pursue making this plant into a bonsai simply based off the negative feedback. I do have two more plants that I THINK are even better than this W. but I am unsure if I should show them simply because I'm not sure if they are desirable stock or not.

Regardless if this plant is or will be suitable for bonsia it WILL have remain potted for a minimum of at least one more year ( however I feel much safer relying on it being potted all its life simply because I am young and rent instead of own.) This is the case for every plant I own. I agree very strongly with the guy in your video about killing beautiful trees which is why I prefer starting with what I have as opposed to what I can collect or even buy. Killing an elder plant would really just break my heart so I would rather kill something like this W. instead of something of value that I would almost certainly kill.

Currently I have my eye on one single loblolly for collection although after I made this thread I am unsure if it is interesting enough to be worth collecting. Beyond this single loblolly, I have access to several rare and or unique plants in the wild located at my parents home, however they live a few hours away and collecting would need to be a highly planned event. Mostly I would like to collect an elder huckleberry bush, and some azalea one of which is a "wild" variety ( heavy on the quotations) but I am not confident enough yet to harvest these because killing these particular plants is almost unthinkable to me considering their age and nostalgic value. This is why I was hoping this W. could serve as an education point for me to build on.

I have a really great co op near by that I love to shop at but I am still new to knowing what is good stock or not so I have not officially bought anything from them that I have intended to use for bonsai. Hopfully with some more research I will be ready by spring.

 

[sorce]

I just was telling these folks in that Jade trees? Thread....that a good beginner tree is a shitty version of a good one of the same species....

To me....that is your Wisteria...have at it!
Seems the loblolly will be to! Do it!

Plenty of newbs collect azalea successfully, I'd plan to get only that to start. Others know better, but my short plan would be....

Get to it before any buds pop, as close as you can to bud pop, maybe this month?

I'd whack it top and bottom, and secure it safely with good soil into its container on site, so when you get home, you don't have to do anything, but set it safely down. I will stick the pointy end of one of those house signs in my eye if it doesn't make it for you.

That means bringing tool, wire , colander, and Good soil with you for the drive.

Traveling with no leaves means no transpiration, but you will need to seal the cuts right after you make them.

See my thread "saw an Azalea"
And, "tools, ferts, fools, and dirt"

Gotta cut em flush. And seal em fast.
This Azalea, is NOT a beginner tree, it sounds like something good!
Adair, Mellow Mullet, JohnG, BVF, and more, have necessary Azalea info. And they all are down there by you.
F off winter studying that stuff!

I just watched a video of a dude talking to a bunch of housewives about doing bonsai, the stick in a pot "method".
Some folks define that as bonsai.

I don't think you do.

If that co-op is like that.....you will always feel like you are getting conflicting info, and they Probly don't have good material.

But that depends on YOUR definition of enjoyment labeled "bonsai".

With the pot making creativity, and your interest, I think you guys can enjoy whatever your definition of Bonsai ends up being. Seems the beginning of a righteous path!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

I just read that you like thin trunks....

That is good....another brief phrase in the ever changing definition of your enjoyment.

Thin trunks, are easy to attain, and there is nothing wrong with a righteous thin trunk....

The wisty is young, that, coupled with the size necessary for believable flower sizes, kind of makes it hard to enjoy it quick like that.....

Have you seen @cmeg1 "Im gonna make brooms"?
Easily accomplished with elms just as well, and get a great look in as little as, 2-3 years!

That may be a right road to look down!

Maples, Elms, some Junipers, cotoneaster, Japanese holly, boxwood, .......

Those are a few more inclined to give you a good "bonsai " with a thinner trunk.

Hell, a right flowering azalea with a thin trunk is nice too!

I think it just happens to be Wisteria is somehow, the furthest species from your needs right now.....but they grow fast so let it!

Sorce