New member. First bonsai

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Tap roots can be difficult to beat.
Shallow pots are a good start; if they can't dig deep, they will not dig deep. At first this taproot will still form and grow sideways, but it'll degrade within a year or two.
Girdling is a good option, I just placed a bunch of zip ties around the fattest roots of my oaks (5-6 years old). As they grow fatter, they'll constrict themselves and naturally die off. This does two things: it gives the other roots time to form, and because it's such a slow process the tree will generally adapt the rest of the root system to grow a bit faster resulting in a more evened out development of the root system. Use the fatter zip ties, because the small ones can be overgrown. Tile growing is a good option too, but you'd need to take good care of watering since there's just a shallow patch of soil above the tile.
Removing the tap root entirely can be risky in young material, it's always good to wait a year or two so that the rest of the roots have time to develop.

 

[Jnicholes]

Good stuff, do you know the species?

No, but I know exactly where the mother tree is. I also have a friend who can help me get an ID.

 

[HorseloverFat]

No, but I know exactly where the mother tree is. I also have a friend who can help me get an ID.

 

[Jnicholes]

Welcome to the world, little oak!

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

If I was YOUR age... I’d be planting SOOOO many seeds....

Very “worth” the investment... a long as you have a REALISTIC knowledge of the process.



Plant some seeds, NJ...

View attachment 352006

I'm about 13 years older than him and I still feel like starting from seed is a good investment lol

 

[HorseloverFat]

I'm about 13 years older than him and I still feel like starting from seed is a good investment lol

I’m 31... and between last year and THIS... I’ve sown... hang on... 1... 2..... let’s just say HUNDREDS ..definite HUNDREDS...(trees/shrubs.. not even getting into the peppers, edibles, and papavers)

I worked landscaping as a younger, less yellow dude... just the grunt side... but we’d plant 3-5 year trees in yards all the time... i understand scale-goals and conditions are much different... but still.. a 3-5 year investment into a NICE, non-“flawed” piece of young material to START building from... doesn’t seem so bad at all.


My oldest son, who is 10, also planted a bunch of seeds this year with his younger brother.. they mostly grow sempivernums, jades, ming ferns, Rosemary basil and peppers.. but they wanted some tree/shrub seeds this time.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

I've got a few oaks I've recently wired going into their second spring since collection. Make sure the pot has drainage holes is all I would add.

 

[BonsaiNaga13]

I’m 31... and between last year and THIS... I’ve sown... hang on... 1... 2..... let’s just say HUNDREDS ..definite HUNDREDS...(trees/shrubs.. not even getting into the peppers, edibles, and papavers)

I worked landscaping as a younger, less yellow dude... just the grunt side... but we’d plant 3-5 year trees in yards all the time... i understand scale-goals and conditions are much different... but still.. a 3-5 year investment into a NICE, non-“flawed” piece of young material to START building from... doesn’t seem so bad at all.


My oldest son, who is 10, also planted a bunch of seeds this year with his younger brother.. they mostly grow sempivernums, jades, ming ferns, Rosemary basil and peppers.. but they wanted some tree/shrub seeds this time.

I can relate to the hundreds, I go crazy on seed collecting every year. I don't mind being the guy putting in the foundation work and I'd rather learn on younger material first. I think my oldest tree is around 4 from seed my dwarf bald Cypress

 

[HorseloverFat]

I can relate to the hundreds, I go crazy on seed collecting every year. I don't mind being the guy putting in the foundation work and I'd rather learn on younger material first. I think my oldest tree is around 4 from seed my dwarf bald Cypress

Abso-lutely.. if you don’t mind greenwork, it’s a fun adventure. Equal, to me, with wilderness collection... but less.... knuckle blood.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Tap roots can be difficult to beat.
Shallow pots are a good start; if they can't dig deep, they will not dig deep. At first this taproot will still form and grow sideways, but it'll degrade within a year or two.
Girdling is a good option, I just placed a bunch of zip ties around the fattest roots of my oaks (5-6 years old). As they grow fatter, they'll constrict themselves and naturally die off. This does two things: it gives the other roots time to form, and because it's such a slow process the tree will generally adapt the rest of the root system to grow a bit faster resulting in a more evened out development of the root system. Use the fatter zip ties, because the small ones can be overgrown. Tile growing is a good option too, but you'd need to take good care of watering since there's just a shallow patch of soil above the tile.
Removing the tap root entirely can be risky in young material, it's always good to wait a year or two so that the rest of the roots have time to develop.

I've also got a bunch of oak (coast live oak) seedlings that are now 1-4 inches tall. I put a bunch of acorns in a single pot and several came up, so I'll need to repot those very soon.

Here's my question (related to your comment):
I'm worried about tap roots because the ones I dug up that were growing naturally are almost all tap root. Does it hurt the oak tree to grow in a shallow pot (like below) to control the tap root or will it hinder growth above the soil?
http://secretgardenrareplants.com/bulb-pans-6-green-plastic-lot-of-10-pots/

The idea I have is to keep the roots shallow for eventual repotting into a bonsai pot and also to save money on soil volume.

I have maybe a dozen or so growing, so maybe I'll just experiment and do both!

 

[Jnicholes]

I was actually wondering the same thing.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

8cm is pretty deep. Shallow in my book is less than 5cm. But you don't have to fill the pot entirely. Saves you more on substrate!

It hurts a tree to grow in a shallow pot. A long tap root gets tortured because it makes no sense to have one, that's the good part. Why transport water through a huge pipe if a couple straws will do just fine? It will receive less water than the finer roots will and it'll take a lot more energy to keep that ugly tap root alive than it takes to keep those finer roots alive.
It is not a guarantee though! I've found tap roots that turned into trunks in shallow pots. But the percentage of tap roots is way lower, closer to 20% of the total compared to regular pots that hit close to 90% having a tap root.
I'm blaspheming here, but organic soil is also a tap root killer; the anaerobic environment will drown and kill that root. But it can also kill everything else. So there's a fine balance.
What I do know if that how coarser the soil, the more likely a taproot is to form. That's why we rarely succesfully collect yamadori from sandy locations, unless we know that they produce finer roots due to the local circumstances/micro-climate.

It doesn't work on every tree type though. Spruces are known to produce huge knuckles if they're grown in nursery pots for too long. But those are usually deep and not very wide. Wide and shallow seems to be the way to go.

You can always nick the root tip of the tap root to force it to produce adventitious roots.

There is no best method. I can only describe the techniques that worked for me on multiple occasions. But I do have to be weary to not convince you guys that my methods are the best or a guarantee for success, because they're not. Plants do what their environment and programming dictates them to do. If the programming overrules the environment, like with spruces, then there's not much you can do about it other than cutting it off and cross your fingers.

 

[Wulfskaar]

8cm is pretty deep. Shallow in my book is less than 5cm. But you don't have to fill the pot entirely. Saves you more on substrate!

It hurts a tree to grow in a shallow pot. A long tap root gets tortured because it makes no sense to have one, that's the good part. Why transport water through a huge pipe if a couple straws will do just fine? It will receive less water than the finer roots will and it'll take a lot more energy to keep that ugly tap root alive than it takes to keep those finer roots alive.
It is not a guarantee though! I've found tap roots that turned into trunks in shallow pots. But the percentage of tap roots is way lower, closer to 20% of the total compared to regular pots that hit close to 90% having a tap root.
I'm blaspheming here, but organic soil is also a tap root killer; the anaerobic environment will drown and kill that root. But it can also kill everything else. So there's a fine balance.
What I do know if that how coarser the soil, the more likely a taproot is to form. That's why we rarely succesfully collect yamadori from sandy locations, unless we know that they produce finer roots due to the local circumstances/micro-climate.

It doesn't work on every tree type though. Spruces are known to produce huge knuckles if they're grown in nursery pots for too long. But those are usually deep and not very wide. Wide and shallow seems to be the way to go.

You can always nick the root tip of the tap root to force it to produce adventitious roots.

There is no best method. I can only describe the techniques that worked for me on multiple occasions. But I do have to be weary to not convince you guys that my methods are the best or a guarantee for success, because they're not. Plants do what their environment and programming dictates them to do. If the programming overrules the environment, like with spruces, then there's not much you can do about it other than cutting it off and cross your fingers.

Thanks Wires_Guy! Like I said, I have several to work with, so I think I'll try a few different things and see what happens!

 

[bendem]

Actually, the patience part is why I chose to start bonsai. You see, I’ve always struggled with patience because of ADHD. I needed to do something in order to exercise and learn patience. So, I chose something that requires a lot of patience. Bonsai.

I am aware it will be many years, but I’m gonna work on being patient.

Jared

I'm a new member of the forum. Just want to say hi from another ADHDer. What is this "patience" concept you're referring to? ;-)

 

[LittleDingus]

I'm a new member of the forum. Just want to say hi from another ADHDer. What is this "patience" concept you're referring to? ;-)

Patience: (noun) The practice of obtaining new bonsai material to pass the time while waiting for the bonsai material you previously obtained to develop.

 

[HorseloverFat]

As someone with REAL, honest-to-God Attention Deficit dissorder.. prescribed by one-on-one psychologist meetings.. roughly 25 years ago.. before those take-home questionaries to get your kids put on stimulants, this kind of language KIND of upsets me.

If you ACTUALLY have these issues... it’s not funny.... ADD/OCD affects my daily life... it is “hell” within my neural synapses.

It’s not a quirky personality, a super particular “cleaner/organization” attribute, a temporary hyperactivity, or a cool shared tattoo...

Sorry!

I’m ok, now.

Just needed to express that.

 

[bendem]

As someone with REAL, honest-to-God Attention Deficit dissorder.. prescribed by one-on-one psychologist meetings.. roughly 25 years ago.. before those take-home questionaries to get your kids put on stimulants, this kind of language KIND of upsets me.

If you ACTUALLY have these issues... it’s not funny.... ADD/OCD affects my daily life... it is “hell” within my neural synapses.

It’s not a quirky personality, a super particular “cleaner/organization” attribute, a temporary hyperactivity, or a cool shared tattoo...

Sorry!

I’m ok, now.

Just

As someone with REAL, honest-to-God Attention Deficit dissorder.. prescribed by one-on-one psychologist meetings.. roughly 25 years ago.. before those take-home questionaries to get your kids put on stimulants, this kind of language KIND of upsets me.

If you ACTUALLY have these issues... it’s not funny.... ADD/OCD affects my daily life... it is “hell” within my neural synapses.

It’s not a quirky personality, a super particular “cleaner/organization” attribute, a temporary hyperactivity, or a cool shared tattoo...

Sorry!

I’m ok, now.

Just needed to express that.

Well, aren't we feeling victimized? I've had ADHD for nearly 40 years. Have been tested. Have been diagnosed. Have been coached. Do take a controlled substance stimulant every day. I'm not allowed to say hi to someone who says he has it as well and make a joke about "patience"? What. Ever.

As someone with REAL, honest-to-God Attention Deficit dissorder.. prescribed by one-on-one psychologist meetings.. roughly 25 years ago.. before those take-home questionaries to get your kids put on stimulants, this kind of language KIND of upsets me.

If you ACTUALLY have these issues... it’s not funny.... ADD/OCD affects my daily life... it is “hell” within my neural synapses.

It’s not a quirky personality, a super particular “cleaner/organization” attribute, a temporary hyperactivity, or a cool shared tattoo...

Sorry!

I’m ok, now.

Just needed to express that.

 

[HorseloverFat]

Hehe! I explained that I was alright by the end.

Self-soothed with a paragraph (or so) of typing..



You have stimulants for those rough edges... mine are still “pointy”, my apologies, it wasn’t my intent to “rile”

...maybe... subconsciously, THAT was MY version of that shared tattoo.

I figured it was “ laced” with enough humor to be taken only “semi-seriously” by the end.

My apologies again.

 

[bendem]

Hehe! I explained that I was alright by the end.

Self-soothed with a paragraph (or so) of typing..



You have stimulants for those rough edges... mine are still “pointy”, my apologies, it wasn’t my intent to “rile”

...maybe... subconsciously, THAT was MY version of that shared tattoo.

I figured it was “ laced” with enough humor to be taken only “semi-seriously” by the end.

My apologies again.

Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I've still got plenty of edges as well. May your trunks be tapered and your roots radial.

 

[penumbra]

My apologies again.

You have nothing to apologize for. Your comments were appropriate for your experience my friend.