New Blue Atlas Cedar - Still able to repot?

[RODERLO]

Hey BNutters,

Last weekend I purchased this Cedrus Atlantica from a local garden center. It's in a kind of clay/peat soil right now.
Upon closer inspection I noticed that it seems to not have broken dormancy yet, based on the look of the buds.
It seems like Cedrus is extremely late to wake up from dormancy? Is this normal for the species?

I would like some confirmation from you guys if this is true and if so does that mean I can still repot this as soon as the buds do start pushing?
I'd really like to get it out of it's nursery soil.

Also, I've read about this species' sensitivity to root disturbance so I will take that into account when repotting.

 

[Shibui]

I agree that your tree has not started to move yet. I think my deodar is also late to start in spring.
We had a very experienced grower down here that repotted cedars in summer. His favourite quote was 'the hottest day of the year'. He said they coped with the root reduction better when they were actively growing. I don't know how that would translate to The Netherlands and I can't confirm the accuracy as I've always been to scared to try it so I still repot in spring though often do the cedar last when it has already started to grow.
In other words, It's not too late to repot your cedar but it could be a little too early?

 

[RODERLO]

Thank you Shibui! Good to know Cedrus are late starters.
I've seen the same info on Bonsai4me (Harry Harrington) about summer repotting. He recommends late summer.
Since he is in the UK his climate should be much more similar to mine.
Bonsai Empire suggests repotting in early spring (before bud break), or in autumn.
Mirai suggests repotting only during an approx. 7 day window in which the first shoots are starting to emerge.

There's so much conflicting info regarding the repotting process that I am kind of at a loss...
Hopefully someone more local to me with experience can chime in!

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

I've got an Atlas Ceder as a garden tree and the buds have started to push about a week ago.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

My BAC awakened normally and began pushing (received early March, made chops, and fertilized upon arrival from nursery). Seems it is behaving normal to BAC. Yours looks good and healthy though

 

[RODERLO]

@Bonsai Forest have you done any rootwork to it?

 

[RODERLO]

I've got an Atlas Ceder as a garden tree and the buds have started to push about a week ago.

Good to know. Mine's just a bit slow I guess. Perhaps it wasn't in an as sunny position in the garden center it came from.

 

[Shibui]

There's so much conflicting info regarding the repotting process that I am kind of at a loss...

I once thought this too but have gradually realized that conflicting information really means there is more options than most people, even experts, are willing to admit or accept. The way I see it, if a range of different growers have had success at different times of year that means that all those times of year are OK. The fact that some of those same experts limit themselves to just one part of that timeline just means they have not needed, or are unwilling, to try anything different from what they learned.
You will note above that even though I have it on good authority that Cedrus can be repotted in summer I am still unwilling to go against my early training and try something new.
Just because I have not done it, or that someone else has not, does not mean it can't be done.

 

[Hartinez]

Well said @Shibui

I once thought this too but have gradually realized that conflicting information really means there is more options than most people, even experts, are willing to admit or accept. The way I see it, if a range of different growers have had success at different times of year that means that all those times of year are OK. The fact that some of those same experts limit themselves to just one part of that timeline just means they have not needed, or are unwilling, to try anything different from what they learned.
You will note above that even though I have it on good authority that Cedrus can be repotted in summer I am still unwilling to go against my early training and try something new.
Just because I have not done it, or that someone else has not, does not mean it can't be done.

@JRBonsai .
Anecdotally. I just repotted one of two BAC. On the one I repotted, the buds were beginning to push new growth and I’ve read this is the best time. These are new trees to me but all is well so far. The other has juicy buds that have not begun extending just yet, much like the pictures you posted of yours. I will wait for those buds to extend before diving in.

The tree I repotted


The one I’m waiting on. Any day now.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

I'll probably catch flak for this, but it’s important to share.

You can repot your tree whenever necessary, regardless of the season, provided that the tree is healthy and that you do so with care.

The old myths that advocate for spring and fall transplanting stem from an outdated practice where trees and plants were secured with burlap material during planting.

It’s understandable to stick with what has proven successful in the past. Recommending tried-and-true methods is sensible, and I wouldn’t criticize that in the least. Just don’t get stuck in the mindset that it’s the only way, especially when science is out here showing us new tricks.

While you can repot at any time, certain seasons are more ideal for transplanting. Early spring is often recommended to prepare for the intense summer heat. Although spring is a viable option, it disrupts the tree’s growth potential and cycle. In spring, the plant’s energy is focused on developing branches and foliage. Repotting during this period diverts energy away from root growth. Nonetheless, spring remains a popular choice due to its historical success.

Fall is considered the best season for transplanting because it leverages the tree’s established roots and benefits from the subsequent rapid root growth in spring.

Summer transplanting is generally discouraged due to the stress caused by heat and drought. Though, summer repotting can work well (as someone above mentioned it's someone's go-to time) if the tree is healthy, but it’s essential to manage heat stress and water adequately. This is not hard to accomplish if you can give the tree what it needs.

Ultimately, fall is the ideal season for transplanting because of the tree’s robust root system and the natural energy shift towards root growth, which helps recover from transplant shock.

With all that said, now is a great time to repot. Your tree appears healthy, and as long as you provide proper care, employ correct transplanting techniques, and use quality substrate, you should have no issues.

 

[WNC Bonsai]

Mine just started to open buds here in Western North Carolina. Oddly enough we have a contorted lanscape tree that popped buds a few weeks ago. I have put off repotting mine as I intend to domsome radical bends this spring. I did a minor root reduction and slip,potting last fall and it didn’t skip a beat. However for a more radical root disturbance here’s what Ryan Neil has posted on the Mirai website about BAC:

Blue atlas cedar bonsai are root-sensitive trees, which means you have a very specific window of time for repotting.
The tree should be actively opening its buds and beginning to elongate before beginning the repotting process.
Once these markers take place, you have a 7-day window to reduce the tree’s root mass. To successfully create a bonsai root system, new growth needs to be evident, and temperatures need to be relatively warm.
Attempting to repot a blue atlas cedar bonsai any time before or after the 7-day window will cause problems with the root's ability to transport water to the foliage.

 

[RODERLO]

I once thought this too but have gradually realized that conflicting information really means there is more options than most people, even experts, are willing to admit or accept. The way I see it, if a range of different growers have had success at different times of year that means that all those times of year are OK. The fact that some of those same experts limit themselves to just one part of that timeline just means they have not needed, or are unwilling, to try anything different from what they learned.
You will note above that even though I have it on good authority that Cedrus can be repotted in summer I am still unwilling to go against my early training and try something new.
Just because I have not done it, or that someone else has not, does not mean it can't be done.

Very good reasoning, thank you.

 

[RODERLO]

Well said @Shibui



@JRBonsai .
Anecdotally. I just repotted one of two BAC. On the one I repotted, the buds were beginning to push new growth and I’ve read this is the best time. These are new trees to me but all is well so far. The other has juicy buds that have not begun extending just yet, much like the pictures you posted of yours. I will wait for those buds to extend before diving in.

The tree I repotted
View attachment 541933

The one I’m waiting on. Any day now.
View attachment 541934

Excellent! That's really helpful for understanding what to look for and how the buds on BAC develop in spring.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

Of all the various trees I’m working with, repotting the true cedars intimidates me the most. Mainly because of my ignorance & inexperience, but also because of the limited and/or contradictory information I was able to find.
Three years ago I attempted to move my one and only Cyprus Cedar (Cedrus brevifolia) into a training pot and transition from garden soil to a bonsai mix. I didn’t find a whole lot of info at the time so, I just went with the standard “early spring as buds begin to swell”. I intended to give the roots a minimal trim (only as needed) to fit the tree into the training pot. To my horror, 2/3 of the roots broke off as I picked the tree up without giving the root ball proper support. I took what was left and completed the repotting. It did nothing for the first growing season so, I was never sure if it had survived the botched operation or was just doing what conifers do
. . . hiding the fact that it was already dead and was just taking its time letting me know.

Last Spring I finally saw some new growth confirming that it was alive! This Spring it is budding all over.

I don’t know if the delayed response was because of the trauma, the species, or if that’s just the way it goes with Cedrus. I just know that I am as intimidated as ever so my Cedars of Lebanon, Deodors, and Atlas Cedars are all waiting for me to work up the gumption to try again.

 

[RODERLO]

Mine just started to open buds here in Western North Carolina. Oddly enough we have a contorted lanscape tree that popped buds a few weeks ago. I have put off repotting mine as I intend to domsome radical bends this spring. I did a minor root reduction and slip,potting last fall and it didn’t skip a beat. However for a more radical root disturbance here’s what Ryan Neil has posted on the Mirai website about BAC:

Yeah that's what I read as well. I am just taking that as "repot as buds start to break and now growth starts showing"
The picture above by @CapeCodBonsai seems to be a perfect example.

 

[penumbra]

I'll probably catch flak for this, but it’s important to share.

You can repot your tree whenever necessary, regardless of the season, provided that the tree is healthy and that you do so with care.

The old myths that advocate for spring and fall transplanting stem from an outdated practice where trees and plants were secured with burlap material during planting.

It’s understandable to stick with what has proven successful in the past. Recommending tried-and-true methods is sensible, and I wouldn’t criticize that in the least. Just don’t get stuck in the mindset that it’s the only way, especially when science is out here showing us new tricks.

While you can repot at any time, certain seasons are more ideal for transplanting. Early spring is often recommended to prepare for the intense summer heat. Although spring is a viable option, it disrupts the tree’s growth potential and cycle. In spring, the plant’s energy is focused on developing branches and foliage. Repotting during this period diverts energy away from root growth. Nonetheless, spring remains a popular choice due to its historical success.

Fall is considered the best season for transplanting because it leverages the tree’s established roots and benefits from the subsequent rapid root growth in spring.

Summer transplanting is generally discouraged due to the stress caused by heat and drought. Though, summer repotting can work well (as someone above mentioned it's someone's go-to time) if the tree is healthy, but it’s essential to manage heat stress and water adequately. This is not hard to accomplish if you can give the tree what it needs.

Ultimately, fall is the ideal season for transplanting because of the tree’s robust root system and the natural energy shift towards root growth, which helps recover from transplant shock.

With all that said, now is a great time to repot. Your tree appears healthy, and as long as you provide proper care, employ correct transplanting techniques, and use quality substrate, you should have no issues.

For general repotting I agree with this and over 40 years in the nursery business supports this.
However for taking a plant from container with a growers medium to a pot with bonsai soil, I disagree to the larger extent. And from soil to bonsai mix I hardily disagree.
This is based solely on my experiences in the Mid Atlantic region of the US. I recognize that others experiences vary.

 

[RODERLO]

Of all the various trees I’m working with, repotting the true cedars intimidates me the most. Mainly because of my ignorance & inexperience, but also because of the limited and/or contradictory information I was able to find.
Three years ago I attempted to move my one and only Cyprus Cedar (Cedrus brevifolia) into a training pot and transition from garden soil to a bonsai mix. I didn’t find a whole lot of info at the time so, I just went with the standard “early spring as buds begin to swell”. I intended to give the roots a minimal trim (only as needed) to fit the tree into the training pot. To my horror, 2/3 of the roots broke off as I picked the tree up without giving the root ball proper support. I took what was left and completed the repotting. It did nothing for the first growing season so, I was never sure if it had survived the botched operation or was just doing what conifers do
. . . hiding the fact that it was already dead and was just taking its time letting me know.

Last Spring I finally saw some new growth confirming that it was alive! This Spring it is budding all over.
View attachment 541936
I don’t know if the delayed response was because of the trauma, the species, or if that’s just the way it goes with Cedrus. I just know that I am as intimidated as ever so my Cedars of Lebanon, Deodors, and Atlas Cedars are all waiting for me to work up the gumption to try again.

Thank you, that's very insightful!
I have had similar experiences with a few other trees.
I did a risky big root reduction on a Spruce and it pushed very little growth in the subsequent season. However, in the second year after repotting it bursted with growth.

According to your experience it seems cedars can take a lot more abuse than we're led to believe.
Also, after I did some careful digging, it seems they have very fleshy, almost rhubarb-like roots which easily snap when bent just a little bit.
Sounds strange, but their roots are similar to Portulacaria Afra (Dwarf Jade) roots.
This, I believe, might be the reason they dislike excessive teasing of the roots as they sustain alot more damage during this procedure than most other trees.

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

According to your experience it seems cedars can take a lot more abuse than we're led to believe.

I’m not ready to draw that optimistic conclusion from the experience. My take away was, you can F-up royally with a cedar and still get lucky.
I’m hoping to read more on this thread from the experienced members.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

@Bonsai Forest have you done any rootwork to it?

I only pruned unwanted stuff upon arrival and letting it grow

 

[penumbra]

Post is interesting to me in any regard, but especially so because I bought a BAC yesterday. I will post more on it later.