New Blue Atlas Cedar - Still able to repot?

[RODERLO]

Post is interesting to me in any regard, but especially so because I bought a BAC yesterday. I will post more on it later.

Cool! Got mine a day before you did.
Thinking of repotting into 1:1 akadama & pumice this coming weekend.
Get the most scary part over with right away. I don’t want to sit in doubt until either fall or next spring.

Upon closer inspection I’ve found a couple buds in the upper most branches have already broken on my cedar.

 

[penumbra]

My decision to wait on repotting is easier for two reasons. One, it has already pushed a lot of growth. Two, it is a balled and burlaped tree in a pot. So basically, it is going from ground to pot. I will spend this season doing a little design work on it after I study it better, and just getting it as vigorous as possible.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Interesting question. Here’s my take.

Extending species like Mountain Hemlock, Blue Altas Cedar etc normally are best repotted at the cusp of the growing season. This is the time the tree is very most responsive to growing.

In the case of the former it’s when the buds begin to turn green. For the latter, when the buds begin to turn blue green. In fact pretty much most operations can be done in a roughly two week time frame at this trigger point.

The rationale behind this statement is root and bud growth on these trees begins after/as the buds push and accelerates through the summer. Energy to fuel growth of both the new needles and the roots initially comes from the already existing needles starting peak production for the year and stored energy in the trunk etc.

It is certainly true a height of the summer repot can be done of BAC if the tree is properly managed afterwards. Totally understand the rationale. Yet doing so loses half of the strongest root growth during the growing season.…and will take away some water and mineral resources, slowing growth in the top hamper.

Performing a repot before this trigger point would certainly be ok, yet the trees roots will languish…growing slowly… until the trigger point arrives.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[Deleted member 47471]

I only pruned unwanted stuff upon arrival and letting it grow

Edit: I mean, unwanted junctions and poor tapered branches, leaving the root system alone

 

[CapeCodBonsai]

Thinking of repotting into 1:1 akadama & pumice this coming weekend.
Get the most scary part over with right away.

As the saying goes, “Kill it or make a bonsai!”

 

[Ovaldes2019]

I just got my first blue atlas cedar and I repotted it, stupidly I should have looked and and see if it fine to repot in early spring after last frost! I had a few old dead needles fall off after repot but nothing crazy. I also only touched the upper 1/3rd of the roots and didn’t remove anything other then or soil so hopefully mine doesn’t die!!!

 

[Ovaldes2019]

I just got my first blue atlas cedar and I repotted it, stupidly I should have looked and and see if it fine to repot in early spring after last frost! I had a few old dead needles fall off after repot but nothing crazy. I also only touched the upper 1/3rd of the roots and didn’t remove anything other then or soil so hopefully mine doesn’t die!!!

I also rewired it so I’m thinking so wire broke a couple of the bud

 

[RODERLO]

Interesting question. Here’s my take.

Extending species like Mountain Hemlock, Blue Altas Cedar etc normally are best repotted at the cusp of the growing season. This is the time the tree is very most responsive to growing.

In the case of the former it’s when the buds begin to turn green. For the latter, when the buds begin to turn blue green. In fact pretty much most operations can be done in a roughly two week time frame at this trigger point.

The rationale behind this statement is root and bud growth on these trees begins after/as the buds push and accelerates through the summer. Energy to fuel growth of both the new needles and the roots initially comes from the already existing needles starting peak production for the year and stored energy in the trunk etc.

It is certainly true a height of the summer repot can be done of BAC if the tree is properly managed afterwards. Totally understand the rationale. Yet doing so loses half of the strongest root growth during the growing season.…and will take away some water and mineral resources, slowing growth in the top hamper.

Performing a repot before this trigger point would certainly be ok, yet the trees roots will languish…growing slowly… until the trigger point arrives.

cheers
DSD sends

Interesting thoughts there @Deep Sea Diver.
To add to this, I think alot of people associate spring repot with slouching of the tree in the subsequent growing season. They see this as something negative. Within your train of thought, however, the tree is simply doing exactly what we want it to: using the energy it has reserved for spring growth to re-establish the ‘injured’ roots. Of course it’s not going to also be able to produce new shoots like in other years when the trees has not been repotted. Do your thoughts align with this?

Now back on topic. My cedar only has some buds breaking on a couple of the branches at the very top. From there it ranges to slightly swollen buds around the middle and completely dormant buds down on the lowest branches. What do I go off here, in terms of determining whether my tree is in the window for repot?

Thanks!

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Interesting thoughts there @Deep Sea Diver.
To add to this, I think alot of people associate spring repot with slouching of the tree in the subsequent growing season. They see this as something negative. Within your train of thought, however, the tree is simply doing exactly what we want it to: using the energy it has reserved for spring growth to re-establish the ‘injured’ roots. Of course it’s not going to also be able to produce new shoots like in other years when the trees has not been repotted. Do your thoughts align with this?

“Not sure about this. Seems there is a plethora of energy on a healthy active BAC to support both, given correct treatment “

Now back on topic. My cedar only has some buds breaking on a couple of the branches at the very top. From there it ranges to slightly swollen buds around the middle and completely dormant buds down on the lowest branches. What do I go off here, in terms of determining whether my tree is in the window for repot?

“Looks like the tree is already in the zone. As stated only lasts a couple weeks. Use normal BAC care with root reduction”

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[99 Mile Creek]

...using the energy it has reserved for spring growth to re-establish the ‘injured’ roots.

"Most of finer root hairs die when transplanted, and plant resources go to root generation in fall. In spring, resources go to the branches and foliage, so the rate of root growth decreases. Summer's heat and drought stress follows spring repotting." -- Larry Morton, Modern Bonsai Practice: 501 Principles of Good Bonsai Horticulture, feat. Walter Pall.

He goes on to list various other reasons for repotting in fall: Less environmental stress, less water needed, low temps, evapotranspiration is reduced, tops are going dormant while new roots are flushing out again and continuing to grow, more photosynthates in branches and roots, more time for plants to establish before bad weather, stable weather to promote root development, etc.

Spring does not promote root growth as much as fall due to it moving more energy to branches and to the leaves/needles. The book is horticultural science applied bonsai, and a great resource.

Early spring is still a great time to repot. Based on your tree still on the cusp of budding or "early spring behavior", it seems like it's still in the window for successful spring potting.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Hmm, this is starting to look like the makings of a media thread?

Haven’t actually seen research on this topic with actual data…short of Jonas Dupuich’s graph of Scot’s Pine yearly growth shown during ABS one year. Data which I believe Ryan Neal reinterpreted for elongating species to when buds green up based upon his own knowledge and on scene trials at Bonsai Mirai

This information was reiterated in the post made above.



Anyone else have actual data to add?

cheers
DSD sends

 

[99 Mile Creek]

That was very informative. It would be interesting if the chart applied more closely to all coniferous trees, not just the Scotch pine.

Did it state how the data was compiled? I'd be curious if there were any confounding variables that were considered.

Also of interest is Jonas Dupuich's advice on not repotting when the tree enters its primary root growth phase, contrasting Morton's stance.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Data came from, I believe, a German study…see the attribution on top of the page. Highly likely a horticultural deal vs bonsai specific as most science work is done for the forestry and nursery businesses. From there google scholar oight to get you to the base article to reveal methods, materials, process and conclusions.

Bonsai professionals are applying to most pines successfully.

Read Morton when it first came out. Sure he’s a decent professional. However haven’t heard of his book quoted in regards to bonsai. This may mpbe merely due to our living in the west coast bonsai community.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[WNC Bonsai]

My belated thoughts on this. First, as mentioned earlier Harry Harrington is located in the UK, is a bonsai professional, with a greenhouse that he uses for post repotting aftercare where he can better control temps and humidity. Also if you know anything about the climate in the UK it is a cool and often wet place, even in summer, with very different conditions from places in the US where these trees can be grown successfully. So much so that in many years J. black pines do not reliably produce second flushes. So a late summer repot in the UK when the trees are coming out of a mid-summer dormancy may be a more reasonable option than for many of us. As with many of these differing opinions, climate and aftercare can greatly influence your potential success. You can also get lucky, even a broken clock is correct at least twice a day!

 

[RODERLO]

My belated thoughts on this. First, as mentioned earlier Harry Harrington is located in the UK, is a bonsai professional, with a greenhouse that he uses for post repotting aftercare where he can better control temps and humidity. Also if you know anything about the climate in the UK it is a cool and often wet place, even in summer, with very different conditions from places in the US where these trees can be grown successfully. So much so that in many years J. black pines do not reliably produce second flushes. So a late summer repot in the UK when the trees are coming out of a mid-summer dormancy may be a more reasonable option than for many of us. As with many of these differing opinions, climate and aftercare can greatly influence your potential success. You can also get lucky, even a broken clock is correct at least twice a day!

Thanks for the insight. I do think my climate is slightly different here. I’m as far eastwards as possible in The Netherlands, so our climate is less mild and generally drier and hotter. Not this year though, it has been exceptionally wet so far.

Regarding this tree, it has since been repotted, fully wired and had shari added.
It has fully flushed out with new growth in the last month.
It only had two small and already weak branches die, which is nothing to fuss about.

I’ll post some pics soon.

 

[RODERLO]

Update 14-06-2024

I did the initial styling on this one back in April, as well as repotting all in one go.
With all the concern around this species really disliking rootwork I held my breath in the weeks after.
Thankfully it's doing fine, apart from some young and weaker interior branches that did drop all the needles, but that is nothing outside of what can be expected.

It's pushing good growth, althought slightly uneven.
This also to be expected as weaker branches will have to catch up with the dominant ones in this new composition.

It has also got a clear graft, which created some bad inverse taper.
Thankfully I was able to partially correct for this with the shari on the trunk.

Fully wired, jin and shari created, and repotted in one go:



The deadwood created back in April has since been allowed to weather:






With repotting I left the field clay at the core of the rootball intact.
The rest of the roots were combed out and around 1/3rd was removed.
Potted into equal parts pumice and akadama.

 

[99 Mile Creek]

Looks great!

Oddly, my dwarf Alberta has the same reverse taper on one side of the base of the trunk. I wonder it it’s more common than I initially thought.

But well done. I love the way the branches weep slightly. Good choice of styling.

 

[Deleted member 47471]

Gutsy! I like gutsy. Crazy graft and taper issue, wow. I really like the style you’ve created. Love the Shari and Jin too. BAC has become my favorite tree in recent months. I visit 5 of them at the nursery every morning at the beginning of my shift just to check in on them.

My BAC bonsai at home is also narrower at base with obvious graft that is lighter in color at the site. Anyway, I cascaded mine recently so it’s covered up in raffia and wired. Shade for a while and BIOGOLD fert and it is responding quite nicely to the work.




Plenty of new growth and elongation.

At this point, I don’t mind the graft and taper issue. I’ll work with the tree to make the best it can be despite the issue. You’ve done nicely with yours so I’m inspired.

(Also, getting raffia between the rosettes and tight foliage of BAC is extremely tedious work )

 

[RODERLO]

Gutsy! I like gutsy. Crazy graft and taper issue, wow. I really like the style you’ve created. Love the Shari and Jin too. BAC has become my favorite tree in recent months. I visit 5 of them at the nursery every morning at the beginning of my shift just to check in on them.

My BAC bonsai at home is also narrower at base with obvious graft that is lighter in color at the site. Anyway, I cascaded mine recently so it’s covered up in raffia and wired. Shade for a while and BIOGOLD fert and it is responding quite nicely to the work.

View attachment 552034
View attachment 552035
View attachment 552036
Plenty of new growth and elongation.

At this point, I don’t mind the graft and taper issue. I’ll work with the tree to make the best it can be despite the issue. You’ve done nicely with yours so I’m inspired.

(Also, getting raffia between the rosettes and tight foliage of BAC is extremely tedious work )

Thank you very much!

Talking about gutsy.. my styling is quite timid compared to your ultra bend into a cascade. Really cool. I’m curious to see how long it takes your BAC to realise the top is no longer the apex.

Yeah I was pretty stoked about the base before discovering the graft. Somehow the bastards at the nursery who pot these always manage to conceal the graft just below the surface…

Regardless, I am planning to add a lot more shari to the trunk in order to further disguise the inverse taper and lack of overall taper in the rest of the trunk.