Need help ID'ing a problem on some of my bougies (looks like insect damage..)

[SU2]

When was the yamadori collected?

The one pictured there as an example (right above your post - not one with any infestation) was collected 2 days ago, that picture was the eve I'd gotten it right after boxing (I defoliated a good amount of those leaves the following day as I'd done a pretty significant root pruning, I know the box looks deep but the trunk base is weird...roots were cut to allow it to fit a bonsai pot!)

If you mean the affected/infested yamadoris, two of them (the ones fixed to the ground) are 4mo old, the one that was on the ground but got moved to a shelf is maybe 3wks old (it was a yamadori that already had growth as the owners had cut it back, that one needed a lot of defoliation too but has since stabilized and then began pretty strong growth, some shoots are almost twice as long as they were when I collected it That one is at one month to the day actually)

 

[SU2]

My guess is that there are not enough roots to support the foliage. Bogies take time to develop bonsai roots. They are naturally a vine and live off of just one or two main roots. Don't worry about it. If you must worry trim a few leaves in half. I would trim some weight off the shoots before they break. Switch to 20 20 20 fert. Have a cocktail when you finish then brag about what great things you accomplished.

What are the differences between cutting leaves in half as compared to defoliating the bottom ~33-66% of the shoot? I did cut leaves in half for a while but started thinking it wasn't as good as defoliation, just intuition would love to know more! But w/o doing so they literally get so heavy they'll fall over, they're incredibly sensitive until they've got a good root ball, I have a quarter of my cuttings in a plexiglass greenhouse setup

[edit: and re the fert, I've changed my tune on fertilizing freshly transplanted (or freshly-rooted) bougies, I guess I'd fert if I had a 0% nitrogen but I don't, but I avoid giving nitrogen to any that are in that state where I'm worried about foliage growth outbalancing root-growth!]

 

[twisted trees]

What are the differences between cutting leaves in half as compared to defoliating the bottom ~33-66% of the shoot? I did cut leaves in half for a while but started thinking it wasn't as good as defoliation, just intuition would love to know more! But w/o doing so they literally get so heavy they'll fall over, they're incredibly sensitive until they've got a good root ball, I have a quarter of my cuttings in a plexiglass greenhouse setup

[edit: and re the fert, I've changed my tune on fertilizing freshly transplanted (or freshly-rooted) bougies, I guess I'd fert if I had a 0% nitrogen but I don't, but I avoid giving nitrogen to any that are in that state where I'm worried about foliage growth outbalancing root-growth!]

Cutting in half seems to promote better back budding at the stem/trunk base.

 

[SU2]

Eeeeew !

I hope I didn't say that!

Sorce

You didn't it was Tiki, that's my bad!

 

[SU2]

Cutting in half seems to promote better back budding at the stem/trunk base.

Thanks, that's very interesting and useful to know! I know that, if it's in the right mood, defoliating parts of a bougie will cause shoots to grow in the spots where you defoliated (it doesn't happen to every node if you do a real heavy defoliation, but I've defoliated a single branch before and almost every single node on the branch grew a fresh shoot instead of a leaf! And it *was* happening when I'd defoliate a single leaf (typically due to leaf-miners), but hasn't been for weeks (must be a different 'growth phase' or something....if 'hardening off' is a 'phase', and not something that just happens smoothly/consistently while things grow, then I suspect that's where I am now on many of my bougies, they've had a crazy growth rate for months and just finally seem to be slowing a little bit)

 

[twisted trees]

Thanks, that's very interesting and useful to know! I know that, if it's in the right mood, defoliating parts of a bougie will cause shoots to grow in the spots where you defoliated (it doesn't happen to every node if you do a real heavy defoliation, but I've defoliated a single branch before and almost every single node on the branch grew a fresh shoot instead of a leaf! And it *was* happening when I'd defoliate a single leaf (typically due to leaf-miners), but hasn't been for weeks (must be a different 'growth phase' or something....if 'hardening off' is a 'phase', and not something that just happens smoothly/consistently while things grow, then I suspect that's where I am now on many of my bougies, they've had a crazy growth rate for months and just finally seem to be slowing a little bit)

Bogies are weird.

 

[SU2]

Cutting in half seems to promote better back budding at the stem/trunk base.

What are your thoughts on supple/fresh leaves versus older leaves, when choosing what to remove? My understanding is that older leaves have less photosynthetic potential, but that they also transpire less (thicker cuticles), I'm unsure which of those would be more relevant but I tend towards older leafs whenever removing any!

 

[SU2]

All this is waaay to confusing you're pinching, but your not, your fertilizing but you're not (BTW the 28-8-16 fert may account for the gross floppy overgrowth you're getting--that's a lot N and not much else) you've got stuff off the ground, except for the stuff that's on the ground.

Bottom line advice, stop being so concerned about all this. You're overanalyzing overthinking. get back to the basics, balanced fert- off he ground, PINCH NOTHING, at least half a day of direct sun.

I mean, yes I've got things that are pinched and aren't; on-ground and on-tables; fertilized at various levels - I have well over 50 trees, with cuttings I'm probably closer to 100 than 50, I've got things in all/every condition lol - I was just speaking about the plants that were infested that I'm looking for help with (my misting of un-rooted bougie cuttings, for instance, has no relevance so I was only speaking to the conditions of the trees in question, that I made the thread about)

What would be your ideal recommendation for a bougie during the summer/vegetative phase? Perfectly balanced? I'd switched from balanced because I thought that was what you were supposed to do, to up the nitrogen ratio during growing season :/ Learning every day!! I still have balanced on-hand so could easily switch back if that's better (when the time comes, until the infestation is gone I'm not fertilizing and only watering enough to keep them hydrated, don't want to give anything extra to the caterpillars!!

 

[sorce]

You didn't it was Tiki, that's my bad!

For the record...

It's totally awesome that you went and found who it was.
I will say nuke em in certain circumstances...like yours...lol!...
But for the most part..
I'm a bug on bugger!

Any who...
Thank you very much..

Your diligence here will transfer to your tre e s and you will realize success!

Sorce

 

[rockm]

I mean, yes I've got things that are pinched and aren't; on-ground and on-tables; fertilized at various levels - I have well over 50 trees, with cuttings I'm probably closer to 100 than 50, I've got things in all/every condition lol - I was just speaking about the plants that were infested that I'm looking for help with (my misting of un-rooted bougie cuttings, for instance, has no relevance so I was only speaking to the conditions of the trees in question, that I made the thread about)

What would be your ideal recommendation for a bougie during the summer/vegetative phase? Perfectly balanced? I'd switched from balanced because I thought that was what you were supposed to do, to up the nitrogen ratio during growing season :/ Learning every day!! I still have balanced on-hand so could easily switch back if that's better (when the time comes, until the infestation is gone I'm not fertilizing and only watering enough to keep them hydrated, don't want to give anything extra to the caterpillars!!

You have too many trees, which isn't uncommon. I'd suggest whittling the numbers down a bit and lay off getting any more. You're flitting between them all, dividing your attention and effort. You have greatly confused active development phases of bonsai with basic recovery of recently collected bonsai candidates. A plan collected a couple of months ago IS NOT a candidate for a high-growth, high-nitrogen program (and no plant needs that as we head into autumn really, even in Fla.) This time of year, as daylight shortens, plants in temperate zones aren't really using a lot of Nitrogen, They're using Potassium to build woody tissue and bulk up roots...

Slowing down and just getting used to the basics of care will help clear your head. Your constant overthinking of what a particular plant needs and why is clouding the obvious. All need BALANCED fertilizer, not high-nitrogen, or other specialized crap to get them stable.

They need to recover, not accelerate. Stepping back a bit and not overcaring for them is another step. I think you will find they will do better without your constant care and attention. Plants have been fine without human care for a VERY long time.

 

[twisted trees]

What are your thoughts on supple/fresh leaves versus older leaves, when choosing what to remove? My understanding is that older leaves have less photosynthetic potential, but that they also transpire less (thicker cuticles), I'm unsure which of those would be more relevant but I tend towards older leafs whenever removing any!

I remove or trim the ones that are ugly or in the way.

 

[Smoke]

You have too many trees, which isn't uncommon. I'd suggest whittling the numbers down a bit and lay off getting any more. You're flitting between them all, dividing your attention and effort. You have greatly confused active development phases of bonsai with basic recovery of recently collected bonsai candidates. A plan collected a couple of months ago IS NOT a candidate for a high-growth, high-nitrogen program (and no plant needs that as we head into autumn really, even in Fla.) This time of year, as daylight shortens, plants in temperate zones aren't really using a lot of Nitrogen, They're using Potassium to build woody tissue and bulk up roots...

Slowing down and just getting used to the basics of care will help clear your head. Your constant overthinking of what a particular plant needs and why is clouding the obvious. All need BALANCED fertilizer, not high-nitrogen, or other specialized crap to get them stable.

They need to recover, not accelerate. Stepping back a bit and not overcaring for them is another step. I think you will find they will do better without your constant care and attention. Plants have been fine without human care for a VERY long time.

Hah! thats why I don't have much to say anymore. Your talking to a wall!

You did put in a good effort though.....

 

[SU2]

Bogies are weird.

yeah they are! I love them, they've just gotta be one of the best beginner bonsais so that's a huge plus for me but I love them in-general (I like thorns, like their growth habit, and their flowering(bracts, technically) is incredible!)

For the record...

It's totally awesome that you went and found who it was.
I will say nuke em in certain circumstances...like yours...lol!...
But for the most part..
I'm a bug on bugger!

Any who...
Thank you very much..

Your diligence here will transfer to your tre e s and you will realize success!

Sorce

Thank you

You have too many trees, which isn't uncommon. I'd suggest whittling the numbers down a bit and lay off getting any more. You're flitting between them all, dividing your attention and effort.

Yeah I've been meaning to get rid of more (got rid of two ~a week ago), have too-many from when I just started that have no real potential but am still maintaining them (by default basically!)

You have greatly confused active development phases of bonsai with basic recovery of recently collected bonsai candidates. A plan collected a couple of months ago IS NOT a candidate for a high-growth, high-nitrogen program (and no plant needs that as we head into autumn really, even in Fla.) This time of year, as daylight shortens, plants in temperate zones aren't really using a lot of Nitrogen, They're using Potassium to build woody tissue and bulk up roots...

That's informative thank you! I imagine I put too-much faith in them being stabilized and not treating them like fresh transplants (though I frequently read that that period is incredibly shorter with bougies, like the wigerts and adamaskwhy who'll advise fertilizing right at the beginning when first boxing-up a yamadori bougie)

I stopped fertilizing until the infestation is gone, when I re-start I'll only do so with a low-nitro / high-potassium (how about phosphorous?) fertilizer, any recommendations would be appreciated! Also, was planning to always add (at the exact label recommendation) my mineral fertilizer (iron/magnesium/etc etc, no NPK), I've stopped that for now due to the bugs but what about the trace minerals should those be applied always or more in-step with nitrogen?
[Also, you say potassium for lignifying + roots....do you happen to know any good resources that really get into the chemistry of what the macronutrients NPK actually do? I mean I know vague things like 'nitrogen = green', 'phosphorous helps blooming', but would really like a more solid understanding of what's actually going on, I know far more about auxin transport than I do basic macronutrient biology so would really like to correct that!]

They need to recover, not accelerate. Stepping back a bit and not overcaring for them is another step. I think you will find they will do better without your constant care and attention. Plants have been fine without human care for a VERY long time.

I'm not sure how to parse this, I mean my plants are getting infested by bugs I don't see how inattention is a valid approach, though I presume you just meant in general - these three affected bougies really weren't getting any special care/attention, they were just in a good vegetative state - apparently the 'higher nitrogen during growth season' was dumb since they're recently-collected but I wasn't hacking them I wasn't misting them they were truly just being left to veg:



I'm planning to get them off the ground soonish, part of me wanted to wait until I was ready to do some carving so I could do it all in one shot (I've bought a die-grinder and angle-grinder for this but am still just learning with them, not ready to actually do work on my trees), was thinking that it made sense to get a lot of that excess/useless wood off my stumps sooner than later, though right now I'm strongly considering a 'gentle' transplant (like not even shaking the substrate from the roots, simply break the boxes they're in and re-pot them in something else, so I can place them on my new bench!)

[edit- just imagined you may read that last part and think "he's beyond helping" lol, I want to be clear that in no way am I planning to put a powertool to one of my bonsais until I'm 100% sure it's the right thing to do, I've only gotten the tools now because I wanted to practice for a while before ever touching one of my trees...I'd planned on waiting a while, then doing trunk work on those two while/during transplanting, but am now thinking I'll be better-served to transplant them sooner than I'm gonna be ready to do any woodwork to them]

 

[SU2]

I remove or trim the ones that are ugly or in the way.

Yes! I forgot to mention that but I also keep in-mind what's 'in the way' which, for me, usually means a large, older leaf that's blocking an entire, younger shoot beneath it from its midday sun!

Hah! thats why I don't have much to say anymore. Your talking to a wall!

You did put in a good effort though.....

He's put in awesome effort and has been a real help but don't know why you're putting it like that, in no way is he 'talking to a wall' here..

 

[Smoke]

He's put in awesome effort and has been a real help but don't know why you're putting it like that, in no way is he 'talking to a wall' here..

[edit- just imagined you may read that last part and think "he's beyond helping" lol,

I might suggest a book I read a long time ago by Tom Peters...."Perception is all there is"...

 

[drew33998]

I mean, yes I've got things that are pinched and aren't; on-ground and on-tables; fertilized at various levels - I have well over 50 trees, with cuttings I'm probably closer to 100 than 50, I've got things in all/every condition lol - I was just speaking about the plants that were infested that I'm looking for help with (my misting of un-rooted bougie cuttings, for instance, has no relevance so I was only speaking to the conditions of the trees in question, that I made the thread about)

What would be your ideal recommendation for a bougie during the summer/vegetative phase? Perfectly balanced? I'd switched from balanced because I thought that was what you were supposed to do, to up the nitrogen ratio during growing season :/ Learning every day!! I still have balanced on-hand so could easily switch back if that's better (when the time comes, until the infestation is gone I'm not fertilizing and only watering enough to keep them hydrated, don't want to give anything extra to the caterpillars!!

I always thought the general consensus was that most vines do not need nor like a ton of nitrogen. I have a ton of trees to. Not many are bonsai so they get osmocoat or miracle gro slow release. The miracle grow seems a lot less stable in my climate. Soon as the whether gets really hot i believe it dumps the nitrogen based on observation. My trees in bonsai pots i will give them a small amount of slow release but mainly i use Dr Earth gold. It seems to work well for me and it doesnt carry that ridiculous pricetag thay biogold does. I do not fuss over bugs too much unless i see significant damage, which i havent in the 6 years in to bonsai. You could always get a hibiscus. All the bugs seem to like mine. The grouping method

 

[rockm]

yeah they are! I love them, they've just gotta be one of the best beginner bonsais so that's a huge plus for me but I love them in-general (I like thorns, like their growth habit, and their flowering(bracts, technically) is incredible!)



Thank you


Yeah I've been meaning to get rid of more (got rid of two ~a week ago), have too-many from when I just started that have no real potential but am still maintaining them (by default basically!)



That's informative thank you! I imagine I put too-much faith in them being stabilized and not treating them like fresh transplants (though I frequently read that that period is incredibly shorter with bougies, like the wigerts and adamaskwhy who'll advise fertilizing right at the beginning when first boxing-up a yamadori bougie)

I stopped fertilizing until the infestation is gone, when I re-start I'll only do so with a low-nitro / high-potassium (how about phosphorous?) fertilizer, any recommendations would be appreciated! Also, was planning to always add (at the exact label recommendation) my mineral fertilizer (iron/magnesium/etc etc, no NPK), I've stopped that for now due to the bugs but what about the trace minerals should those be applied always or more in-step with nitrogen?
[Also, you say potassium for lignifying + roots....do you happen to know any good resources that really get into the chemistry of what the macronutrients NPK actually do? I mean I know vague things like 'nitrogen = green', 'phosphorous helps blooming', but would really like a more solid understanding of what's actually going on, I know far more about auxin transport than I do basic macronutrient biology so would really like to correct that!]




I'm not sure how to parse this, I mean my plants are getting infested by bugs I don't see how inattention is a valid approach, though I presume you just meant in general - these three affected bougies really weren't getting any special care/attention, they were just in a good vegetative state - apparently the 'higher nitrogen during growth season' was dumb since they're recently-collected but I wasn't hacking them I wasn't misting them they were truly just being left to veg:
View attachment 156519 View attachment 156520


I'm planning to get them off the ground soonish, part of me wanted to wait until I was ready to do some carving so I could do it all in one shot (I've bought a die-grinder and angle-grinder for this but am still just learning with them, not ready to actually do work on my trees), was thinking that it made sense to get a lot of that excess/useless wood off my stumps sooner than later, though right now I'm strongly considering a 'gentle' transplant (like not even shaking the substrate from the roots, simply break the boxes they're in and re-pot them in something else, so I can place them on my new bench!)

[edit- just imagined you may read that last part and think "he's beyond helping" lol, I want to be clear that in no way am I planning to put a powertool to one of my bonsais until I'm 100% sure it's the right thing to do, I've only gotten the tools now because I wanted to practice for a while before ever touching one of my trees...I'd planned on waiting a while, then doing trunk work on those two while/during transplanting, but am now thinking I'll be better-served to transplant them sooner than I'm gonna be ready to do any woodwork to them]

I answered all of this about three posts ago.

You have too many trees. You need to get back to the basics. Sop trying to be an expert out of the gate trying to tailor specialized approaches for all of these.

They are ALL in recovery now.

NONE are prepared to develop quickly and won't be for the foreseeable future.

Balanced fertilizer FOR ALL. Get them all up off the ground.

Stop procrastinating. and most of all Stop, stop, STOP futzing around with them every day.

LEAVE THEM ALONE. look up "benign neglect" and take the definition to heart.

 

[SU2]

You could always get a hibiscus. All the bugs seem to like mine. The grouping method

lol when I started out hibiscus was one of my go-to specimen (as they could handle what I was doing w/o dying, this is before finding bougies!), anyways I now have a collection of hibiscus and all but two have aphid infestations, am currently combating it by killing the aphids by hand + water pressure and the ants with home-made boric-acid baits (similar to the Ortho liquid bait stations)

 

[Paradox]

@SU2

Stop overthinking things and do what @rockm says. He is absolutely on the money with what he told you.

 

[SU2]

@SU2

Stop overthinking things and do what @rockm says. He is absolutely on the money with what he told you.

Absolutely, have built a table and re-boxed something and am generally trying to get the 'quality level' of my nursery up, most plants are doing very very well