Need Advice on Japanese Blackpine Thunderhead- Niwaki

[SanDiegoNut]

I'm new to all this but I'm looking for a center piece tree for this part of my garden. I know I want a japanese black pine of some sort but these are hard to by in San Diego. A local nursery has this thunderhead variety. It's a bit bushy and oddly shaped and a bit messy but does it have potential? Or should I keep looking. I have a budget of 1k.

Thoughts? TIA

 

[RoadManDenDron]

The main problem I can forsee is fitting the rootball of this into the space you have already prepared

Pines don't like to have their roots messed with and I imagine there to be a substantial root ball in that box.

As far as the tree itself goes it is difficult to say as we cant really make out branch structure from the pics, but it might be possible to remove downwards growing needles and make a convincing niwaki from this

 

[SanDiegoNut]

The main problem I can forsee is fitting the rootball of this into the space you have already prepared

Pines don't like to have their roots messed with and I imagine there to be a substantial root ball in that box.

As far as the tree itself goes it is difficult to say as we cant really make out branch structure from the pics, but it might be possible to remove downwards growing needles and make a convincing niwaki from this

Thank you for the input and commentary. Yes; my landscaper would need to move the boulders and dig a lot larger hole to fit this in and rebuild the mound and boulders. I'll go and take a look at this tree again tomorrow and get a better look at the branch structure. It looks like a healthy thriving thunderhead though.

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

The tree you are showing is not that big for a niwaki tree (IMO) and it needs a lot of work to become a nice niwaki tree.
If you want a nice developed niwaki tree I doubt you can buy it for only 1000 bucks.

 

[LuZiKui]

I'm new to all this but I'm looking for a center piece tree for this part of my garden. I know I want a japanese black pine of some sort but these are hard to by in San Diego. A local nursery has this thunderhead variety. It's a bit bushy and oddly shaped and a bit messy but does it have potential? Or should I keep looking. I have a budget of 1k.

Thoughts? TIA

Have you looked up in the Orange County/LA area? There are some larger nurseries that have a lot of material. Someone here might be able to chime in but I remember going to a nursery that had quite a few large pines, not sure if they'd be in your budget though. Maybe @Ruddigger can point you in the right direction?

 

[jevanlewis]

That's a really nice space. Since this is the centerpiece of your garden, getting the right tree (and cultivar) is critical. JBP is an excellent choice, but I think the standard variety is a better choice than "Thunderhead," not only for bonsai but also for niwaki. I had a landscape Thunderhead, and although I didn't have it long enough to see its potential (I moved), even in a short period of time I was able to see its weaknesses as compared to a regular JBP. Here are my observations, both from my personal experience and from what I have read from others in this forum.

JBP
+ Vigorous grower
+ Barks up more quickly
+ Shorter needles
+ More refined branches
- Can grow too large to do niwaki if you ignore it for too long ("too long" probably means 5-10+ years of just letting it grow without any pruning; so, this probably isn't a problem)

JBP Thunderhead
+ Vigorous grower
+ Only 15' mature height, which means you can let it get away from you and not have to worry about it turning into too large a tree to do niwaki; however, if left alone...(see next item)
- Develops whorls extremely quickly, which means you have to stay on top of pruning to prevent bulging
- Thicker, more juvenile-looking branches
- Grafted?

While I think regular JBP is the better choice, admittedly, there is so much less info on Thunderhead, especially experiences from people doing niwaki on it over a long period of time. I can only find a few images of mature Thunderhead online...


...and while it's possible the Thunderhead could look awesome as niwaki in the right hands, there aren't many examples. On the other hand, the regular JBP is proven as niwaki:


Not sure on pricing, but I wonder if a place link this (https://www.hanselmanlandscape.com/nursery/ornamental-pines/) has younger ornamental trees that would be under $1K including shipping (or, you could take a road trip to PA to pick it up!). Of course, there probably are closer options, especially in OC/LA, as @LuZiKui said. Ultimately, you're going to need to purchase a pre-niwaki, and develop it yourself over the years.

 

[rockm]

If you’re looking for Japanese garden trees a Japanese garden nursery would be the answer. There are a few around that source trees from what I can find. Phone calls even to a nursery on the other side of the country might help find one in your area. You’re going to have to ask around at plant nurseries and specialty tree nurseries to find what your looking for (which I think will cost far more than $1000 for a medium size tree aalready under niwaki training)

Find Us | Shin-Boku Nursery

Finding Shin-Boku Nursery, the largest Japanese Garden Tree nursery in North America.

www.shin-bokunursery.com

Nursery Photos - Washington D.C. - Lee's Oriental Landscape Art

Trusted landscaping company in The Washington D.C. Metropolitan Area. Call Lee's Oriental Landscape Art for information on our landscape services.

www.japanesegardensmd.com

 

[SanDiegoNut]

The tree you are showing is not that big for a niwaki tree (IMO) and it needs a lot of work to become a nice niwaki tree.
If you want a nice developed niwaki tree I doubt you can buy it for only 1000 bucks.

This tree is actually a decent size. It's a in 36 inch box and stands about 6 to 7 feet tall. It does look a lot smaller in the pics though. But I guess all that is a moot point since i decided to pass on it. I just wasn't feeling it's potential and something about it looked a bit off to me. You are right on the $1000 if i want a tree that is already pruned for niwaki and a good size it looks like prices are closer to $2500. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[SanDiegoNut]

That's a really nice space. Since this is the centerpiece of your garden, getting the right tree (and cultivar) is critical. JBP is an excellent choice, but I think the standard variety is a better choice than "Thunderhead," not only for bonsai but also for niwaki. I had a landscape Thunderhead, and although I didn't have it long enough to see its potential (I moved), even in a short period of time I was able to see its weaknesses as compared to a regular JBP. Here are my observations, both from my personal experience and from what I have read from others in this forum.

JBP
+ Vigorous grower
+ Barks up more quickly
+ Shorter needles
+ More refined branches
- Can grow too large to do niwaki if you ignore it for too long ("too long" probably means 5-10+ years of just letting it grow without any pruning; so, this probably isn't a problem)

JBP Thunderhead
+ Vigorous grower
+ Only 15' mature height, which means you can let it get away from you and not have to worry about it turning into too large a tree to do niwaki; however, if left alone...(see next item)
- Develops whorls extremely quickly, which means you have to stay on top of pruning to prevent bulging
- Thicker, more juvenile-looking branches
- Grafted?

While I think regular JBP is the better choice, admittedly, there is so much less info on Thunderhead, especially experiences from people doing niwaki on it over a long period of time. I can only find a few images of mature Thunderhead online...
View attachment 586723View attachment 586724

...and while it's possible the Thunderhead could look awesome as niwaki in the right hands, there aren't many examples. On the other hand, the regular JBP is proven as niwaki:
View attachment 586725View attachment 586726

Not sure on pricing, but I wonder if a place link this (https://www.hanselmanlandscape.com/nursery/ornamental-pines/) has younger ornamental trees that would be under $1K including shipping (or, you could take a road trip to PA to pick it up!). Of course, there probably are closer options, especially in OC/LA, as @LuZiKui said. Ultimately, you're going to need to purchase a pre-niwaki, and develop it yourself over the years.

Thank you for thoughtful and detailed reply. I think you are correct and agree with your assessment to look for a standard JBP versus the thunderhead. Apparently there is a nursery about 1.5 hours north of me in OC/LA area called Akita Bonsai Nursery. It looks like they have been mentioned on this forum before. I spoke to someone over the phone saying they have a ton of JBP in a variety of sizes from 15 gallon pre-niwaki to mature trees in 36 and 42 planter boxes. I'm definitely going to make a drive up north to check it out. Think I may have to up my budget to get a nicer tree to fit this spot. My dining room window is directly centered with this spot so I definitely want a nicer tree that i can enjoy inside and out! Thank you again for the thoughtful reply and feedback.

 

[AmellLeo]

I'm new to all this but I'm looking for a center piece tree for this part of my garden. I know I want a japanese black pine of some sort but these are hard to by in San Diego. A local nursery has this thunderhead variety. It's a bit bushy and oddly shaped and a bit messy but does it have potential? Or should I keep looking. I have a budget of 1k.

Thoughts? TIA

It grows best with enough space and a little pruning could make it the centerpiece of your garden.

 

[Shibui]

But I guess all that is a moot point since i decided to pass on it. I just wasn't feeling it's potential and something about it looked a bit off to me.

I suspect that's the variety talking to you.
Thunderhead is one of the 'Yatsubusa' types that produces abundant new buds so stays quite dense and smaller than regular JBP. Good for those who don't want to prune but it has some drawbacks - some of which mentioned above and more difficult to manage as traditional niwaki
Regular JBP is easier to work with but you, or the gardener, will need some knowledge of managing pine niwaki which need strict pruning several times every year to maintain shape and branch density.

You can pay bigger bucks for a tree that someone else has spent years developing or a bit less for a less advanced tree and devote a couple of years to developing it to your taste in your garden.