Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822

A large percentage of people in Europe use DE in the form of kitty litter and get great results

It's completely different than the DE we have here. What they use in Europe has particle size that is more similar to the LPA that people use here in the US.

IMO the DE cat litter in Europe and Turface / oil dry DE that we have here are incomparable products because the size and shape are so different. Air and water vapor penetration are some of the most important things to think about when it comes to bonsai soil so even though it may all be DE (or very similar calcined clay) the behavior of the products in use is too different to compare them on an even scale.
 
Turns out the Internet is terrible at tone. I was genuinely just trying to add something to the discussion, not trying to stir shit up.

The reason for the selective quoting was simply to highlight the point I was addressing for context, not as some sort of gotcha or manipulative way to make you out to be the bad guy. I agreed with most of the rest of what you were saying, so saw no point in quoting it all.

TBH, I was a little taken aback by the all caps "astounding ignorance" comment, but I think we were just misunderstanding each other a bit. I'm more or less unoffendable, so it's all good. Water under the bridge ...

You do make very legit points, especially on over/underwatering. Underwatering is undoubtedly one of the big reasons beginners kills trees, as is using poorly draining soil that compounds the problem.

The mix I use is mostly inorganic for that reason. It can take being watered every day, and I prefer to, but has just enough organics in it to hold a little extra moisture if I need it to.

It's definitely not some thing I made up - it's professional bonsai soil from the local shop. It's what they use.

I don't mind having trees that need water 2-3 times a day in the summer, but I do travel for work occasionally, so I like giving a little margin of error to folks who water my trees, since none of them are bonsai people and I've learned the hard way to make it as easy as possible or come back to dying or dead trees.

Seems to work out fine - I've been using it for many years and my trees thrive in it. It does get a bit expensive though, as I do usually use it for growing out anything I deem a "serious project". Basically, if it's in a nursery pot, I usually try to get it in good soil within a year or so of getting it.

I like growing trunks, so in practice that means I have lots of nursery stock projects going on at any give time. I do occasionally look for cheaper alternatives for growing out stock, but haven't found anything I really like better yet, or that I'd trust for more than a season or two.
Clearly a misunderstanding my friend, I apologize for my response.
 
It's completely different than the DE we have here. What they use in Europe has particle size that is more similar to the LPA that people use here in the US.

IMO the DE cat litter in Europe and Turface / oil dry DE that we have here are incomparable products because the size and shape are so different. Air and water vapor penetration are some of the most important things to think about when it comes to bonsai soil so even though it may all be DE (or very similar calcined clay) the behavior of the products in use is too different to compare them on an even scale.

Jerry Norbury posted some pics on Flickr showing his bonsai soil mix.

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/norbury/4302576831/in/set-72157631904207123/

Seeing it next to the akadama should make it clear how different it is compared to the NAPA stuff.
 
Are there any sources in the US for DE based cat litter? Most of the stuff I see is too small or clumps up.
 
Are there any sources in the US for DE based cat litter? Most of the stuff I see is too small or clumps up.

I've tried the Red Bag, with the same cat on it as the one Harry Harrington posted.

It mushes.

I haven't found cat litter that works...,,,

I came to Oil Dry 8822 in my search for it.

Sorce
 
Clevetromba, are you sure it's the coconut husk? I've had animals dig in pots seemingly at random. Also it could be because of organic fertilizers.
 
Clevetromba, are you sure it's the coconut husk? I've had animals dig in pots seemingly at random. Also it could be because of organic fertilizers.
Yeah, I think it's completely random. Actually now that I think about it, the pots being dug in don't even have the coconut husk, they have pine bark and pumice.
 
Being a gear head I had to try it. Jap Maple in 8822. if it don't work out it wont go to waste. (the oil dry) seemed an appropriate pic.IMG_20160226_170131500.jpg
 
The napa 8822 stuff definitely works as an affordable soil medium. I used it for one full growing season for my elms and the trees produced very fine good quality feeders. The only issue is that it is a bit soft. The smaller particles easily become compacted and mushy. From the bag I'll only use the largest particles from a 3mm or 1/8th inch sieve. The problem with this is that you get terrible yield. Probably a little less than 50% of the bag. This of course varies bag from bag and from the DE source.
 
I'm also giving 8822 a try this year, some plants have straight DE some are 50/50 DE and pumice. I'll see how it goes.

Aaron
 
Off the top of the bag it all fit my strainer. I'm sure the bottom of bag will differ. Just over 8 bucks for 26 qts. Stall-Dry was next at 20 bucks. But it was the last bag and felt like sand through the skuffed up bag from the bottom of a pallot I assume.

I've got 2 of these lil J Maples and gonna try something else on the second to compare.
 
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I know I know; oh hell the a-hole speaks. But bear with me this time PLEASE.
Couple of things we need to address here.
First, DE when milled and sifted is sold as a "crawling insect" killer. How? Why?
Because it is the skeletons of little critters--diatoms--the silicate is like tiny little grains
with "sharper than knives" edges. That literally cuts what ever crawls through it to
death. Several times throughout this thread there have been mentioned sifting out
the fines. All good except nowhere did I see anyone mention that this must be
done with the "out put" being down wind from you. These same "fines" will cut the
hell out of your lungs causing silicosis--not a pretty way to die. Wear a dang good
face mask, dust off your clothes before removing it, do it on a windy day or place a
fan so that all the fines blow away from you, and do it outside. Seems like common
sense but there are a lot of nubees that have no idea and need to be forewarned. I
would recommend these same precautions no matter what you are sifting. Silicosis
by whatever name is the same-long slow ugly death waiting to happen. Mill-lung from
saw mills' wood dust, black-lung from coal dust, white-lung from cotton dust, potters-lung
from clay dust, growers-lung from handling peat moss unprotected, etc. -- All the same
result--death waiting to happen. Clean the stuff but watch out for YOU and YOUR health.
You can't tend your trees very well while coughing up a lung.
Secondly, I had the fortunate/unfortunate experience of driving all over the country for 6+
years in all seasons and all kinds of weather. What did I notice? Shyte ain't the same anywhere.
Rochester in high summer (July) is roughly our April, LACA is bright clear but you constantly
feel the need to moisturize--Santa Ana anyone?, Onalaska is cold and wet, Tampa/St. Pete is
warm and wet--like living in a shower/car wash, State College/Altoona is also cool and damp
but in a different way; I could rattle off a dozen other places and trends that are similar or different
but each of them is different in some way. I cannot relay to you--in Salt Lake City what my
climate actually is nor can you fully express your's to me. So these discussions about soil,
though good for starting points and suggestions of "what has worked" for you, are really
just pi$$ing in the wind. You must consider your climate & your watering habits to determine
what will work for you and your trees. Climate on the drier side but regularly attended will
yield different results than the same ones only watered morning and evening; the same is true
of damper climate but with different worries--soil fungus and root rot; and I said all this to point
out what I have said before. Other than explaining the qualities/capabilities of soil components
any discussion of soils is moot. Given the variations from place to place and person to person
any discussion beyond that is silly pointless wastes of time. Beyond growing a potted begonia
or a bed of petunias we have NO common frame of reference to start from anyway.
 
I snort a line of D.E. dust before each repotting session just to get in the mood.
If this were only true. Would I have some policies, uh papers I mean papers for you to sign.
Hey, don't judge; there is a profit margin in anything. This includes actions by the ignorant.
 
I'll be trying lava,pumice ,DE and or bonsai jack bonsai block this year for trees going into pots. Probably going to toss a little charcoal in too. I have 3 trees in this type of soil or very similar. A jack pine a Seiju elm and a scots pine.
hah I have compiled the exact same components for this spring. I sprung for one 7gal of the bonsai block.
 
If this were only true. Would I have some policies, uh papers I mean papers for you to sign.
Hey, don't judge; there is a profit margin in anything. This includes actions by the ignorant.
Yep. A big,fat,jawclenching,throat closing eye watering gagger. I use Bayer 3 in 1 for mouthwash in the morning too.
Keeps me young and vigorous.
 
The reverse....Dry-Stall, is good.

I heard stall dry is bad. Or at least not Dry-Stall!

Nice....Maple, Basket, and Bench!

Sorce

Stall Dry is powdered pumice. You want Dry Stall which is small pumice.
 
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