Napa Oil Dry part no. 8822

I'll take pictures of trees other than elm. Everything I grow is in 8822.
 
I used to use this. As far as I'm concerned it's better than Turface, cheaper and more widely available. I'd still recommend it in some cases, but once I started using larger particles sizes there was no turning back for me because growth was so much better.
 
KennedyMarx said:
I used to use this. As far as I'm concerned it's better than Turface, cheaper and more widely available. I'd still recommend it in some cases, but once I started using larger particles sizes there was no turning back for me because growth was so much better.
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what do you use now?
 
music~maker said:
Labeled "bonsai" anything isn't a good standard of quality. There are lots of things I've seen labeled as bonsai soil that would be worse for your tree than a bag of oil dry. I've commonly seen bags of organic soil that was basically succulent soil with a small amount of grit mixed in. I'd never put my trees in that.

This isn't some experiment with no data points. A large percentage of people in Europe use DE in the form of kitty litter and get great results - exact same thing as what's in the oil dry bag. This is well-tread territory.

I have a local shop that has good, pre-mixed soil that I really like, but for folks that don't have that option, there are plenty of alternatives that are perfectly fine - this is definitely one of them.
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You selected one sentence from two paragraphs I typed, changed the wording and COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT- if you are comparing potting soil Labeled as Bonsai mix to Akadama, pumice and lava rock similarly sized and sifted to remove fines... Well your ignorance on this subject is ASTOUNDING, and I am obviously wasting my time. My point is that Akadama for instance is mined, sorted to regular sized particles, sterilized... Specifically TO BE bonsai soil, and it is widely accepted to be one of the best substrates available. Oil Dry is made to soak up oil spills. Turface is made to cover baseball fields and dry up puddles. You "can" plant your trees in whatever you want... And for the most part, how you care for them is what determines their health, but there are benefits to some substrates over others.
 
@Smoke do you know where the data is you posted on Cation exchange and substrates?

Thanks.

Sorce
 
Eric Group said:
Well your ignorance on this subject is ASTOUNDING, and I am obviously wasting my time. My point is that Akadama for instance is mined, sorted to regular sized particles, sterilized... Specifically TO BE bonsai soil, and it is widely accepted to be one of the best substrates available. Oil Dry is made to soak up oil spills. Turface is made to cover baseball fields and dry up puddles. You "can" plant your trees in whatever you want... And for the most part, how you care for them is what determines their health, but there are benefits to some substrates over others.
Click to expand...

Wow, that escalated quickly.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight, and I also wasn't advocating for DE, turface, or anything else. And I am well aware that there are soils designed and engineered specifically for bonsai.

I was simply pointing out that many, many people use non-traditional soils quite successfully. There's a guy on this very forum with over 300 trees, and he keeps most of them in DE. And he has some excellent trees.

At some point everything we use for soil now started out as something else. Somebody had to do the experiments, there's lots of things that work, and there's no one right soil for every application.

For example, I'll utter a heresy - I hate Akadama. It's fantastic the first season, but I hate how it breaks down over time. It also seems to put my trees on a slightly fussier watering schedule than I prefer. I know some people get great results with it, but I just don't like it.

I know soil is like religion and everyone has their favorite variety. I'm just the open-minded guy that looks around and notices that lots of people use lots of things and that there seems to be no one-size fits all answer here.

Also, you're right, I did quote you a bit out of context, but that doesn't invalidate the point I was making, nor does it imply that I didn't comprehend your original post. ;-)
 
My thing is this; I know that the Japanese have been doing bonsai for around a 1,000 years. And I know they were very fortunate to find an excellent component for bonsai soil on their island. In fact they found two, one for Azaleas and one for everything else. But, how realistic is it to think that they got lucky enough to find the ONLY substrate useable for cultivating bonsai? The Japanese have used Akadama and Kanuma for hundreds of years because it was the best thing they had available to them. Akadama wasn't ENGINEERED for use in bonsai horticulture, it was discovered to be suitable and was improved upon by firing it to remove organic substances that could be harmful. Why then is it not possible that other substances that exhibit similar properties could Also be suitable for bonsai? DE exhibits similar properties, had it been located on the islands of Japan and had they tried it first, would they have discovered Akadama?
 
sorce said:
Yes, this is elsewhere.

However.

It deserves it's own thread.

Cat litter?

Also known as Napa Oil Dry part no.8822.

Works fine alone. Mixing is for DJ's.

You don't lose a lot to sifting, even if you lose half (you don't, more like 1/6), -$3, oh poo. Lose half your akadama and your out 5 times that in shipping alone!

Produces fine feeders almost exclusively, even in regular pots.

Has a visual time to water color cue.

Has a relationship with water that your trees love. Excellent soak and release.
It will wick up your perched water table to the roots needing it by mid day. And is just as ready to release it back to them.

Can be resifted and used in year 2.

Pine fines actually make it less retentive.
There is no need to make it more retentive.

Roots don't grow into it. So no breakage at repot time, just shake it out.

It doesn't crap up with liquid fish fert.

Doesn't slime, doesn't produce dirty muck at the bottom of the pot.

It lays flat, and not too porous, so moss application is simple.

Porous enough to hear the air get sucked in, so don't even go there!

You can use fines to kill slugs and other pests.

It doesn't lime stain or algaefy.

Simple. Real simple.

I don't know if you can source the right product anywhere, but the right product, can be used anywhere.

So, while you all fret, argue, and mix a bunch of different substances to try and find the perfect soil.

I kick back, mixing substances, watching my trees grow like mad, enjoying the artist side of the coin.

Sorce
Click to expand...
Ya know....you say its good...but can it grow foemina?
 
Smoke said:
Ya know....you say its good...but can it grow foemina?
Click to expand...
You know foemina grow everywhere. In every shape and style. From forests to swamps to deserts to mountains. They seem to be very adaptable plants. I imagine a little diatomaceous earth would even slow one down. Maybe except that flowering foemina someone asked about. I believe those need kanuma.
 
A little levity from time to time is good for everyone. These trees,the hobby,this forum are my happy place. I smile a lot while doing all of these things. So I believe everyone else should too. I don't take myself too seriously. Or try not to.
A wise man once said"I may not be here for a long time but I'll have a good time"
 
Robert E Holt said:
My thing is this; I know that the Japanese have been doing bonsai for around a 1,000 years. And I know they were very fortunate to find an excellent component for bonsai soil on their island. In fact they found two, one for Azaleas and one for everything else. But, how realistic is it to think that they got lucky enough to find the ONLY substrate useable for cultivating bonsai? The Japanese have used Akadama and Kanuma for hundreds of years because it was the best thing they had available to them. Akadama wasn't ENGINEERED for use in bonsai horticulture, it was discovered to be suitable and was improved upon by firing it to remove organic substances that could be harmful. Why then is it not possible that other substances that exhibit similar properties could Also be suitable for bonsai? DE exhibits similar properties, had it been located on the islands of Japan and had they tried it first, would they have discovered Akadama?
Click to expand...
No offense Robert- I hope you do not find my counter points as offensive as the musical guy... But, I don't find DE to be that similar to Akadama actually. Akadama has a lot more of an irregular surface, is a much softer consistency, breaks down over time... Not to mention one is basically hardened clay, the other is pretty much little animal skeletons mashed together..

Clearly, if DE is working for people, and they want to keep on using it... That is fine. I only commented on the thread to say I tried it and did not even like it as well as turface and not even close to the results I have seen from the Ak/ pum/lava mix... Perhaps it is something with my location or my temperament or maybe I just didn't like the color (or the slimy residue it makes...) but, I don't think anybody has said other materials could not also be suitable..

As far as the term "engineered" I guess that implies akadama was a man-made material? It obviously is not... But they also did not just stick a shovel in the ground and find Akadama all at a perfectly uniform size, free of sticks, roots, bugs, disease.... So, in a sense it IS engineered (in the form we purchase it from our local bonsai nursery). They mine it, sift, smash, break it down to uniform sizes, sterilize it, remove extra ingredients that might have been mixed in (MOST of them anyway, you might still find a random piece of stick or something in a bag)- so, quite a bit of "engineering" seems to go into making this stuff..

If you want to really break it down- the biggest difference is DE/ turface have smooth surfaces. Pumice, lava, Akadama- Even if they were the same size as the turface/ DE pieces- promote better air exchange because they do not pack together and because their surfaces are irregular and porous. Another benefit to Akadama comes from the fact it does break down- supposedly as the pots fill with more roots, the Akadama breaks down more, keeping more moisture in the soil to better sustain the roots when the pot is slam full of them... Almost like it is planned. I haven't been using it for more than a year or two now, so I haven't experienced this, just something I read... (Thus the "supposedly")... How about acidity and nutrient absorption? Anybody want to give some data on that? I actually had conversations with a friend who says Akadama is more acidic than Kanuma! Anybody run any tests on the acidity and nutrient retention of Akadama vs Oil dry or Turface? Would be interesting to see... Seems like I saw an article about that on here one day but I do not remember where. Probably in one of the 5,923 other threads we have had in here about soil components.

I think I am going to say EFF all this BS and go back to Miracle grow potting soil mixed 50% with turface... Where the Hell is Dario at to back me up in that? :)
 
music~maker said:
Wow, that escalated quickly.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight, and I also wasn't advocating for DE, turface, or anything else. And I am well aware that there are soils designed and engineered specifically for bonsai.

I was simply pointing out that many, many people use non-traditional soils quite successfully. There's a guy on this very forum with over 300 trees, and he keeps most of them in DE. And he has some excellent trees.

At some point everything we use for soil now started out as something else. Somebody had to do the experiments, there's lots of things that work, and there's no one right soil for every application.

For example, I'll utter a heresy - I hate Akadama. It's fantastic the first season, but I hate how it breaks down over time. It also seems to put my trees on a slightly fussier watering schedule than I prefer. I know some people get great results with it, but I just don't like it.

I know soil is like religion and everyone has their favorite variety. I'm just the open-minded guy that looks around and notices that lots of people use lots of things and that there seems to be no one-size fits all answer here.

Also, you're right, I did quote you a bit out of context, but that doesn't invalidate the point I was making, nor does it imply that I didn't comprehend your original post. ;-)
Click to expand...
Excuse me, but- You Selectivy quoted me in an attempt to mis-represent the words that i posted and implied I had said or meant something that sounded completely ignorant, so, YEAH... I think it is pretty clear you were trying to stir shit up... Then, you did it again in this post! You make it seem like I came right out and called you ignorant.. There was an "if" qualification made prior to the PORTION you chose to quote- which again is an attempt to Mis-represent the meaning of my words and make me seem like "the bad guy" here. You can play it off any way you wish, but that pretty much pisses me off. Sorry. It does. I am a pretty laid back even tempered person most the time, but the way you are responding to me and twisting my words is downright obnoxious. In my eyes that is an attempt to escalate things.

As for your comments on Akadama... If a fussy watering schedule is an issue for you... Well- I have trees that need to be watered 2-3 times a day in the heat of the summer sometimes... Believe me, I get it! I used to rely more on organic ingredients to avoid having to water my trees as often, but... Since I grasped what I feel is the biggest benefit of a good inorganic mix, the health and vigor of my trees has improved dramatically. See, if you have a bunch of heavy organics it is possible to over water (though difficult and I think over watering is the most over- exaggerated health concern for trees in Bonsai- UNDER WATERING is the rampant killer of trees especially among newbies IMO)... It is also possible to get too comfortable not watering every day and wind up leaving your trees alone too long and letting them dry out... A good, open inorganic mix makes it virtually impossible to over-water! You CAN water on a schedule, that schedule is EVERY DAY during the summer... It also makes it very hard to over fertilize if you are using organic ferts and don't just go insanely overboard! Lots of water, lots of nutrients.. That is a pretty easy schedule for watering and nutrients- harder to make mistakes that are dangerous for your trees... It is a good way to go. Akadama breaking down has not caused a problem for any of my trees. I have some in mixes with Ak for about two years now, and the only ones that have had any break down were trees where I disturbed the soil soon after watering and crushed it manually myself... They still never showed much in the way of changes in water absorption or drainage.

Sure, trees CAN grow in all sorts of stuff. I am far from an exclusive user of these hyped up Japanese ingredients... In fact I only really use them in trees that are farther along in development/ my best trees. Personally I am not going to spend the money it takes to fill large pots with those soil ingredients or even turface/ DE for that matter.. So I use my own potting soil mix for growing trees out. That is- to me- the most difficult part of soil discussion- different people, in different locations talking about trees at varying degrees of development... Leads to a lot of disagreement, arguing and in the end- most people are just going to say "I like my way, I am not changing" in the end anyway...

Personally, I was a turface using anti-Akadama guy myself a couple years a go- "it is too expensive, turface works fine for me, my trees are growing fine so why switch..." Until I actually tried a good mix of Akadama/ lava/ pumice. You can only learn so much from reading about this sort of stuff. Until you have a few trees sitting on your bench growing in it, you will not understand or willingly accept the differences and benefits.
 
I used napa DE for this growing season and it works fine as an affordable soil component. For trees in rough development Boon's mix is too expensive for me so I save my higher quality inorganic blends for my trees in later stages of refinement. One thing I'd like to add as a note though is that while DE isn't exactly soft, it isn't hard earlier. When summer temps here in socal was getting in the 90+ range consistently I began using sphagnum on the top of my soil to hold in moisture. I ran out of sphagnum and was a bit lazy so I got some sifted miracle grow and packed it in the top. Few days later my drainage started getting bad. Thought it was just the soil I added, but in the act of packing in the miracle grow the top layer of DE got crushed. It mixed with the soil and became this dense grey-brown mud. I just removed the top layer and redressed it and everything went fine. The middle and bottom layers of DE are still completely intact.
 
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