Mirai new nutrition concepts

[Rodrigo]

Anyone else catch the Mirai stream on the new nutrition concepts he's been working on with Apical AG from August 10th? I just watched it in the library a couple of days ago and found it extremely interesting.

In (a very short) summary for those that didn't watch it, basically everything in fertilization and plant nutrition comes down to ratios between the different macro and micro nutrients plants need. Just because a fertilizer off the shelf is "balanced" (ie, 5-5-5 NPK) doesn't mean our trees are balanced on the inside, even if they're green and growing well. "A tree could look healthy on the outside but that doesn't mean it's healthy on the inside." That's why we're having to spray insecticide and fungicide more and more. A truly healthy tree could have up to 95% resistance without the need of spraying anything.
Also, most fertilizers sold in stores mostly contain the NPK and other trace elements, but are missing one of the most important nutrient: Calcium. In Ryan's testing of his trees at Mirai, he mentioned 199 out of 200 trees were calcium deficient.
The point of the stream in general is to test our trees and figure out exactly what they have and what they need, and take the recommended steps to detoxify them and balance the nutrition by feeding them what they actually need.

What are your thoughts on this? I'd love to get my trees tested, but at $85 per tree for testing, it would add up quite quickly. I'm thinking of testing one or two of my trees to get a general idea and go from there. Even though supposedly it can vary quite a bit between species, even if they're fed the exact same thing. No matter how much I try to keep up on fungicide regiments, I always seem to struggle with it year after year, especially my trident Maples. That's why I'd like to give this new way of looking at nutrition a try and see if it improves.

Anyone else thinking of testing your trees?

 

[pandacular]

My thoughts on this are pretty similar to my thoughts on things like water treatment and custom tools: I do not doubt that it makes a difference for people like Neil, who are pushing the envelope for care for their trees, but I do think it is unlikely to be--to use a Ryanism--the point of greatest limitation in the average person's trees. This is absolutely the sort of things we should be doing for the high art of bonsai, for legacy trees and other culturally important pieces, but perhaps less so for the common gardener.

I also feel that there is a great possibility here, as in all research, for trickle down findings to be more applicable to individuals. Maybe if they get a large enough dataset, they could generalize some findings about species, regions, container dynamics, who knows what else.

 

[IzzyG]

I've been on board the Apical/Mirai nutrition program since Spring. It started when 4 of the Mirai junipers I had acquired last year started showing some pretty bad chlorosis(I was certain a few of the branches were gonna be lost). 2 of those 4 were recently styled so their foliage wasn't the densest so it definitely was concerning. I attempted to self diagnose for about a month(tried an iron and then mag/cal supplement) before finally reaching out to Ryan. Send out samples from 7 trees(varying species and where they came from) and every single one of them has rebounded hard. In addition, I've not sprayed a fungicide or insecticide at all since. Since then I've tested 3 other times for either follow ups or new acquisitions and there's most definitely a pattern (calcium deficiency and excessive salts are the most common ones I've seen). I now have groupings based on species that are on a "normalized" regimen and I've experienced denser/tighter growth alongside heavy back budding across the entire garden(it's dark out but I can take some photos of the spruces and the older California junipers tomorrow as examples).

I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread. If you're able to get the results you want on your protocol, stick with it. But I'm a fan of the evidence based approach rooted in science vs the dogmatic/uncalculated options.

 

[jevanlewis]

I've been on board the Apical/Mirai nutrition program since Spring. It started when 4 of the Mirai junipers I had acquired last year started showing some pretty bad chlorosis(I was certain a few of the branches were gonna be lost). 2 of those 4 were recently styled so their foliage wasn't the densest so it definitely was concerning. I attempted to self diagnose for about a month(tried an iron and then mag/cal supplement) before finally reaching out to Ryan. Send out samples from 7 trees(varying species and where they came from) and every single one of them has rebounded hard. In addition, I've not sprayed a fungicide or insecticide at all since. Since then I've tested 3 other times for either follow ups or new acquisitions and there's most definitely a pattern (calcium deficiency and excessive salts are the most common ones I've seen). I now have groupings based on species that are on a "normalized" regimen and I've experienced denser/tighter growth alongside heavy back budding across the entire garden(it's dark out but I can take some photos of the spruces and the older California junipers tomorrow as examples).

I'm not saying it's the best thing since sliced bread. If you're able to get the results you want on your protocol, stick with it. But I'm a fan of the evidence based approach rooted in science vs the dogmatic/uncalculated options.

Thanks for sharing your experience. A few questions:
1. Where do you send samples for testing?
2. Were calcium deficiency and high salts the only issues you saw or just the most common? If there were others, what were they?
3. How did you treat calcium deficiency?
4. How did you treat for high salts?
5. If tests showed other issues, how did you treat for those?

Overall, curious to hear more about your regimens for your different groups.

 

[IzzyG]

Thanks for sharing your experience. A few questions:
1. Where do you send samples for testing?
2. Were calcium deficiency and high salts the only issues you saw or just the most common? If there were others, what were they?
3. How did you treat calcium deficiency?
4. How did you treat for high salts?
5. If tests showed other issues, how did you treat for those?

Overall, curious to hear more about your regimens for your different groups.

1: Apical AG out in Oregon. https://apical-ag-home.com/

2: Those were the most common. Phosphorus deficiency, excessive metals, incorrect ratios were other issues that needed correcting

3: Calcium supplement.

4: Carbon and silicate.

5: I'm still learning the details and what corresponds. They provide an analysis and a recommendation for treatment but doesn't explain it in detail. I'm fortunate enough to be able to jump on a call with Ryan and discuss but he has a degree in horticulture so in all honesty, I have to follow up with google lol.

The different groups is based on a myriad of factors but tolerances is a big one. For example, most of the junipers are grouped together except for Sierra Junipers due to their hypersensitivity to salt toxicity(their protocol calls for higher Calcium Silicate). One seed junipers on the other hand, are very salt tolerant. Another factor I'm finding is knowing where I'm acquiring the tree from and the previous owner's nutritional program, etc.

 

[Scorpius]

Fertilizers is not nutrition for trees, photosynthesis and the sugars resulting from it are though. I like to think of fertilizing akin to us humans taking a multivitamin.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Heard the stream and was somewhat befuddled Ryan’s trees were so far out of balance. Another professional I know is also on the same program and thinks it’s the best thing since sliced bread albeit labor intensive.

Dunno myself as our trees don’t ever have many issues, yet we don’t use a lot of fertilizer and little hazardous chemicals. When fertilization is done Humic acid, kelp and CalMag are added with the ferts. Brought some of our trees in to compare and ours are definately robust and healthy… despite many being pot trained for quite a number of years,

As an ecologist trained science teacher, on the conceptual side I like the non hazardous, unforced growth approach, using tissue sample data to guide applications of basic micro, macro and other nutrients. Loving it!

On the practical side, not sure this regime would work in the field for hobbyists. At this point the system seems pretty complicated, labor intensive and costly. However if these hurdles can be overcome with additional volume of customers, the system would really be a boon for bonsai hobbyists. Hoping this may prove to be the case!

Anyways, that’s just my two bits.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[rockm]

Remembering back to the "superfeeding" programs that were pushed in the 90's and early 00's...I get a bit suspicious when someone pushes a specific program with a partner selling something.

That's just me, though.

If it works, it works, but $85 per tree?

 

[Underdog]

I put Tums on my tomato plants... nothing new.

 

[FreshAirSunshine]

Fertilizers is not nutrition for trees, photosynthesis and the sugars resulting from it are though. I like to think of fertilizing akin to us humans taking a multivitamin.

I think more science behind the art of bonsai is great, but I’m cautious about the risk of pseudoscience if people “sort-of” get the science and consider it the scientific approach versus really know how to do a scientific study. It sounds like we’ve gotten some good initial observations that certain additions beyond NPK and generic micronutrients can be beneficial, but a real scientific study would use a large cohort, have controls on the subject plants, and apply statistical analyses against a controlled observation (chlorosis as defined by some critical change/measurable?). It’s the right direction, but not yet really science. On a similar note, realizing that photo system II centers around a 3-manganese, 1-calcium Cubane structure as the active site would indicate why low calcium may directly impact the trees ability to make food.

 

[Maiden69]

Remembering back to the "superfeeding" programs that were pushed in the 90's and early 00's...I get a bit suspicious when someone pushes a specific program with a partner selling something.

That's just me, though.

If it works, it works, but $85 per tree?

I kinda agree, but when we are talking about the trees that @IzzyG have, $85 is chunk-change. I think the money is worth if it is going to save a valuable tree. I think another thing that could be worth is the system that @cmeg1 use. I started using the 5:2, CalMag, etc and I have seen a lot of good growth without having to push the NPKs up.

 

[hemmy]

Heard the stream and was somewhat befuddled Ryan’s trees were so far out of balance.

But what is “balance”? Did they sample dozens to hundreds of the same species in the wild and nursery cultivation?

Also, he’s said before how low his irrigation water pH is and it seems to me that is a big factor in his container environment. It is so different from the vast majority of us with higher alkalinity water. I have heard him say that some students in other areas are using the Ag service. It would be nice to see those results contrasted against other areas.

 

[rockm]

I kinda agree, but when we are talking about the trees that @IzzyG have, $85 is chunk-change. I think the money is worth if it is going to save a valuable tree. I think another thing that could be worth is the system that @cmeg1 use. I started using the 5:2, CalMag, etc and I have seen a lot of good growth without having to push the NPKs up.

Well, yeah, if you have a $5000 tree that is going south, $85 isn't all that much. For the average bonsai grower with $100-$1000 trees it's more complicated.

 

[IzzyG]

Just a few points to add to the conversation:

1: The recommendations provided are not from Mirai/Ryan. They're from David who started Apical Ag. His specialty is in agricultural nutrition and the recommendations are an extrapolation of the science that is used in that field. Whether that adds or discredits the approach is ultimately for the consumer to decide. For me personally, I really do enjoy seeing the data from the analysis to reconcile with what I'm seeing visually. Not all visually healthy trees are physiologically healthy as it might take them a while to aesthetically show it. It also gives me an avenue to get factual answers. Perhaps not all the time but if I do lose a tree, I'm going to try what I can to find the reasons I'm not repeating the issue. We've all heard the common story of "My tree was doing so well but then it suddenly went downhill and no matter what I did, it died. I don't know why".

2: Since the last time this came up, I believe the number is somewhere in the high hundreds of samples have been tested across the country(from Mirai and the students). My suspicion is the number crossed a thousand. Perhaps one day all of the data will be made publicly available.

3: The cost can be prohibitive. From what I understand, there's only a handful of labs around the world that is able to analyze from a small sample size(like those provided by bonsai practitioners). Apical's extraction technology is proprietary(just a commentary on perhaps why the cost is still "high")

4: It definitely can be labor intensive. My program is on once per week drench and once per week foliar spray and there's currently 4-5 different concoctions. Across a collection of about 60 plus trees, it definitely can take a while to go through.

5: I'm hopeful that as we learn more through this approach, the systematic analysis of all of the data will allow everyone to find some nutritional trends/patterns that benefits us all. Maybe something similar to "I apply bio gold every 90 days and add fish emulsion/kelp every week" but instead "I apply (insert product) and foliar spray weekly with (insert product)".

 

[rockm]

Just a few points to add to the conversation:

1: The recommendations provided are not from Mirai/Ryan. They're from David who started Apical Ag. His specialty is in agricultural nutrition and the recommendations are an extrapolation of the science that is used in that field. Whether that adds or discredits the approach is ultimately for the consumer to decide. For me personally, I really do enjoy seeing the data from the analysis to reconcile with what I'm seeing visually. Not all visually healthy trees are physiologically healthy as it might take them a while to aesthetically show it. It also gives me an avenue to get factual answers. Perhaps not all the time but if I do lose a tree, I'm going to try what I can to find the reasons I'm not repeating the issue. We've all heard the common story of "My tree was doing so well but then it suddenly went downhill and no matter what I did, it died. I don't know why".

2: Since the last time this came up, I believe the number is somewhere in the high hundreds of samples have been tested across the country(from Mirai and the students). My suspicion is the number crossed a thousand. Perhaps one day all of the data will be made publicly available.

3: The cost can be prohibitive. From what I understand, there's only a handful of labs around the world that is able to analyze from a small sample size(like those provided by bonsai practitioners). Apical's extraction technology is proprietary(just a commentary on perhaps why the cost is still "high")

4: It definitely can be labor intensive. My program is on once per week drench and once per week foliar spray and there's currently 4-5 different concoctions. Across a collection of about 60 plus trees, it definitely can take a while to go through.

5: I'm hopeful that as we learn more through this approach, the systematic analysis of all of the data will allow everyone to find some nutritional trends/patterns that benefits us all. Maybe something similar to "I apply bio gold every 90 days and add fish emulsion/kelp every week" but instead "I apply (insert product) and foliar spray weekly with (insert product)".

Understood, however, one quibble (and it is a quibble)-- the recommendations are from Apical AG, BUT they're through the most well-known bonsai channel in the U.S. That is an endorsement basically. I don't think this is the first time that Apical AG has appeared on their stream. The medium is the message. I have no real problem with that, really, but it's marketing and as said it's up to the consumer to consider.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Just some ground truth to clarify any misconceptions

Mirai is using information and products from soil scientists that have stepped out of the post war Agricultural chemically driven “Better growing through chemistry” model.

Apical‘s, as well as the other providers Eden Solutions etc, main business comes from agriculture, not bonsai. The bonsai niche was carved out by Ryan Neal’s quest to develop better results… ideally free of the constant need to rain hazardous chemicals onto his trees. He offered some, and then all, of his collection up for experimentation in an attempt to crack this nut.,,,

Apical and Bonsai Mirai worked out the how to translate the dataset that was grounded on agricultural crops and applied this information to trees. That alone was a challenge. Then Ryan worked out factors needed to convert from agricultural application rates to the dilutions needed for trees.

Given his results at least one other large collection of very high quality bonsai (and @IzzyG too) is/are now following his lead and working with Apical and the other providers… I’ve been observing the results with interest.

It’s not some miracle cure. It’s a matter of systematically taking data from bonsai root, leaf and soil samples over time and developing a systematic program that will respond to the needs of the trees in each collection. The goal is to create a series of steps that will lead to a stable tailored program for one’s personal collection.

So very high level long term scientific work is going into creating a model that could someday be used in one’s backyard. That’s the goal Bonsai Mirai professes to achieve.…. and Ryan’s put up his trees and money to make it happen for the community.

That ain’t nothing

best
DSD sends

 

[rockm]

Just some ground truth to clarify any misconceptions

Mirai is using information and products from soil scientists that have stepped out of the post war Agricultural chemically driven “Better growing through chemistry” model.

Apical‘s, as well as the other providers Eden Solutions etc, main business comes from agriculture, not bonsai. The bonsai niche was carved out by Ryan Neal’s quest to develop better results… ideally free of the constant need to rain hazardous chemicals onto his trees. He offered some, and then all, of his collection up for experimentation in an attempt to crack this nut.,,,

Apical and Bonsai Mirai worked out the how to translate the dataset that was grounded on agricultural crops and applied this information to trees. That alone was a challenge. Then Ryan worked out factors needed to convert from agricultural application rates to the dilutions needed for trees.

Given his results at least one other large collection of very high quality bonsai (and @IzzyG too) is/are now following his lead and working with Apical and the other providers… I’ve been observing the results with interest.

It’s not some miracle cure. It’s a matter of systematically taking data from bonsai root, leaf and soil samples over time and developing a systematic program that will respond to the needs of the trees in each collection. The goal is to create a series of steps that will lead to a stable tailored program for one’s personal collection.

So very high level long term scientific work is going into creating a model that could someday be used in one’s backyard. That’s the goal Bonsai Mirai professes to achieve.…. and Ryan’s put up his trees and money to make it happen for the community.

That ain’t nothing

best
DSD sends

No it's not nothing, good for him. Still doesn't change the marketing thing, really

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Ah… looks like the ever present suspicion and quest for the ultimate transparency? …

Perhaps a question that might be more on point would be,

“Is Bonsai Mirai getting a future or present financial return, or other considerations, by endorsing the Apical process and helping Apical increase their bonsai clientele, as well as the sale of Apical or Eden Solutions products and services?”

This is a valid question to ask Bonsai Mirai.

Personally if these techniques work and are reasonable in price, I would be totally fine with this.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[Shogun610]

What’s next putting a tree into a CT-Scan?

 

[hemmy]

I thought it was said that Mirai was going to offer the specific products once the routine was better established? With the costs of the tests, even discounted for bulk, I have a hard time believing Mirai would make very much money off of this process. I tend to believe that they are doing it to advance the practice.