Mirai blog on watering

[PowerTap]

As was said in another thread about a post by Neil, he is talking at the outer limit of what is possible in bonsai. He is capable of paying attention to and noticing the difference in a tree that is finely and maybe precariously balanced in its health and growth and how fast and hard he can push it's development.

I on the other hand, and many of us here likely, do not operate on anything close to his level. It's little league and the MLB All Star game.

So yes, he pays a lot more attention to his trees and the exact amount of watering they need.

In contrast I have an automatic watering system, and I'll be camping this weekend.

 

[leatherback]

Had a brief shower of rain at least once a day here for 2 weeks now so I didn't have to water.

Be carefull with this thinking. Normally a bit of rain does very little for the pots. The more developed trees are, the more water never reaches the pot. Also, only the top of the substrate gets water, rather than the core of the pot, risking a drying out of the centre rootmass

I love how my trees look much better after actual rain than with the shit I usually give them.

It is in large part because the higher humidity all-over, and the water on the foliage. It is the same for non-potted plants. You can irrigate all you want. One summerstorm does much more for the plant lushness

it's the quality of the rainwater, and even nitrogen balance and pH

I doubt it is the water quality. Overall humidity is raised

One thing I have noticed already this spring is my trees are drying out faster than in the past.

Interesting. Is it really the pot, or is it much better visible tha the top is drying out?

 

[It's Kev]

@IzzyG don't own the house, also it's a chinese communist square cube blockhouse building, so it has no gutters, the water falls on flat concrete and then runs down a drain

@leatherback i use my own discretion, if it's monsoon level rains and typhoon season is upon us, then no water is needed, weather forecast reported 150 mm per hour in some areas, i think that's enough

 

[BobbyLane]

One thing I have noticed already this spring is my trees are drying out faster than in the past. This is especially true for those I potted in Boon’s mix last year, akadama dries out faster than my usual pumice/haydite/bark mix. It really changes how I water them compared to the old mix and our temps are still in the low to mid 70s. I now check 3-4 times each day and may have to reactivate my sprinkler/drip system at this rate.

Maybe they just have more roots.

 

[BobbyLane]

As was said in another thread about a post by Neil, he is talking at the outer limit of what is possible in bonsai. He is capable of paying attention to and noticing the difference in a tree that is finely and maybe precariously balanced in its health and growth and how fast and hard he can push it's development.

I on the other hand, and many of us here likely, do not operate on anything close to his level. It's little league and the MLB All Star game.

So yes, he pays a lot more attention to his trees and the exact amount of watering they need.

In contrast I have an automatic watering system, and I'll be camping this weekend.

We should all be paying attention to our trees and noticing changes/differences. If this has become a chore, maybe you have too many trees. Or nothing really worthy of grabbing your attention. Many hobbyists are just growing sticks/plants in pots, so the enthusiasm and delight that comes from having to develop, wire, style, train, water, nurture trees that have potential might not be as strong. When you become more hands on with your trees, something Ryan eludes to on another stream and a topic that was being discussed recently, you will definitely notice things, whether at watering or wiring or whatever. Most serious hobbyists im aware of dont just have an automatic watering system, they water manually too.
Knowing your trees isnt elite level stuff

 

[Asymetrix]

The loss of moisture in a pot isn’t ethereal, it’s tangible and measurable. It’s directly observable.

It is also drier quicker at exposed surfaces (all other things equal) than interior regions, and drier at the top than at the middle or bottom, hydrophobic cores notwithstanding.

Moisture leaves a pot faster when a tree has more foliage, when the volume of the soil is more thoroughly filled with roots, when the column of soil is taller, etc etc. Many of these variables are in constant shift.

When I see or hear “watering is the hardest thing in bonsai” for me it doesn’t translate into “watering is a mystery” it translates to “watering is a lot of work because you must check every pot with your hand, take into account foliage, roots, and upcoming weather”. In other words, watering is straightforward, but toil-heavy.

Visit a garden like Hagedorn’s and follow Carmen when she waters and you see that she inspects every tree— yes, sometimes at a glance from sheer force of daily experience , but every tree is evaluated as stated above, in anticipation of or feedback from the interaction of photosynthesis, evaporation, and weather.

This is why “free draining substrate then set it and forget it” ultimately bites you — mindless watering has certainly bit me. If there are too many trees to check carefully for moisture status, then there are simply too many trees in the garden.

I think your post is succinct and incredibly accurate to my account.

Truly if you check every pot, every time, and water accordingly you will not fail.

If the task isn't possible you have too many trees, as you say, something we all fall prey to, especially as novice practicioners.

I put 15 trees in the ground this year, simply to reduce my workload with daily care and I couldn't be happier with bonsai, as before with 75+ trees in development it was becoming a chore rather than a passion. (At my skill level that is)

 

[Baku1875]

I doubt it is the water quality. Overall humidity is raised

Certain species do not tolerate high pH (nitrogen and iron availability decline because it drops out of the solution and leaves can become chlorotic), by law most municipalities in the US need to have a very high pH (7.5+) to prevent it lead from being soluble in the water, because we have a lot of very old pipes.

Also there are studies out there that proved that rain water in certain areas will actually contain nitrogen, as well as have a pH of less than 6.5 which is ideal for trees. Both of those 'features' of rainwater make it pretty awesome outside of the humidity and hydration component. My pH out of the hose is close to 8, so I have started to add vinegar to bring it down to 6.5 in the past few weeks and noticed some improvement in my trees' health.

It would definitely take more than a few showers to see the benefits of the pH and nitrogen of rain though. You are right that the main benefit is simply a higher humidity environment, especially during 'thirsty springtime'

 

[Mike Corazzi]

If I used rainwater here, everything would be dead from dehydration.

 

[Cajunrider]

As was said in another thread about a post by Neil, he is talking at the outer limit of what is possible in bonsai. He is capable of paying attention to and noticing the difference in a tree that is finely and maybe precariously balanced in its health and growth and how fast and hard he can push it's development.

I on the other hand, and many of us here likely, do not operate on anything close to his level. It's little league and the MLB All Star game.

So yes, he pays a lot more attention to his trees and the exact amount of watering they need.

In contrast I have an automatic watering system, and I'll be camping this weekend.

Same here. I have a bunch of pre-bonsai. When I am home, I set the system to the lowest amount of water needed based on my experience. Then I spot water the trees as needed after work every day. When I am away, I increase the water in the automatic watering system. Some trees may get a bit too much water but they generally recover just fine. As I get better with my bonsai practice and have more refined trees, I will learn more about watering and will adjust accordingly.

 

[dbonsaiw]

With the vast majority of my trees in mostly inorganic soil and having to leave in the morning for work, my main goal is to keep my trees alive. Watering ends up being on a schedule naturally, simply because they mostly need water at the same time. I spot check the trees morning and night just to be sure, because this isn't 100%. The BC and dawn redwoods are thirsty and I'm fairly certain I couldn't overwater these if I tried. They will get more water. My Acer Rubrum needs a little more attention as it tends to need water on a schedule that doesn't match the general schedule or the BC-type watering. Finally, my larger Seiju found its way into a bonsai pot and I am still learning how to treat it - I think it's just better in this case to water if unsure.

 

[jandslegate]

I’ve not had a problem of over watering or under watering. I simply know my trees and water when needed. I has worked well. I don’t subscribe to a lot of complexity around watering….or other routine requirements. I keep it simple.

There's just too many variables if you allow yourself to over think it. Location and your particular climate, the specifics of the species, the substrate being used and of course your own resources and availability to supply that water. I tend to go off a bit of instinct and observation of my trees. I'd love to have more free time with my trees and set up varying irrigation systems but for the moment I work with what I've got.

 

[jandslegate]

Other things to consider other than species, soil type, etc. is location and micro climate. Who would believe that when I lived in North, Georgia, where average temperatures in June, July, and August are in the upper 80s or higher every day, I only needed to water once in the morning. Now that I’m up in Michigan, I’m watering twice daily right now, though those twice a day watering’s, will likely drop to once a day once it warms up a bit more and becomes more consistently, humid, likely in July. Turns out ambient humidity and sun exposure plays a huge role in the water needs of your plants. High humidity is a given down south, but not as much up in the north. Throw in more sunlight and consistent breezy conditions and your water needs literally double during certain times of the year.

Ultimately, I fall into the camp of “if in doubt , water”.

Wind can also be a factor in drying out. Granted one would ideally avoid intentionally putting a tree in a less than ideal location but sometimes weather changes it's mind.

 

[Maiden69]

With the vast majority of my trees in mostly inorganic soil and having to leave in the morning for work, my main goal is to keep my trees alive. Watering ends up being on a schedule naturally, simply because they mostly need water at the same time. I spot check the trees morning and night just to be sure, because this isn't 100%. The BC and dawn redwoods are thirsty and I'm fairly certain I couldn't overwater these if I tried. They will get more water. My Acer Rubrum needs a little more attention as it tends to need water on a schedule that doesn't match the general schedule or the BC-type watering. Finally, my larger Seiju found its way into a bonsai pot and I am still learning how to treat it - I think it's just better in this case to water if unsure.

I had a similar experience you had with your red maple with my Liquidambar O. I was watering automated at 8:30am and 2:30pm, by 1:00 pm the leaves on the liquidambar were already drooping, as soon as the water hit the tree within one hour the leaves were back to normal. I solved this by using a shallow dish under the Root Pouch bag. That helped the tree stay ok until the next watering started. This way I was able to maintain the watering on the 2 station times.

I now have a 4 station timer, so I can adjust for the trees that need more water. I would suggest a water saucer for your BC's, not sure if the dawn redwoods would react the same, but if they do they would benefit from them. I think the only time I would rely only on watering on BC's is when they enter in refinement... if I ever reach that stage with them. That I think, is the only way to truly slow down their growth.

I posted this before, but you can tailor further the automated tree watering by using spot spitters and/or drip emitters. This is what I use now and its been great at allowing me to water trees in one zone that have different water requirements.

 

[BobbyLane]

I think that this depends on the soil you are using. If you are using akadama as Ryan is, the scaling of the particles would reach a point where if not watered properly, they will hold too much water, and if not watered enough they will stay too dry. This is one of the conundrums of akadama. As Ryan has stated, one of the greatest benefits and worst qualities at the same time.

If you read Walter Pall's posts, he water his trees often, but he don't use akadama, and I'm sure most of the guys that use anything else not organic could do the same thing. Right now all my trees in Root Pouch bags are getting watered 3 times a day, they are on all inorganic soil, Bonsai Jack Monto Clay and Bonsai Block most of them, others have some added pumice. I have yet to see any overwatering sign, even on my JBP and junipers. I'm sure once I start moving trees into development and using akadama I will have to adjust my watering schedule once the tree starts to overcrowd the pot with roots.

Why do you water 3 times a day?

 

[leatherback]

It would definitely take more than a few showers to see the benefits of the pH and nitrogen of rain though. You are right that the main benefit is simply a higher humidity environment, especially during 'thirsty springtime'

so why argue?

 

[Maiden69]

Why do you water 3 times a day?

They were drying out between watering and the Texas heat was not helping. First watering at 8:30 runs for 5 min, the next 2 run for 2 minutes. All the substrate in the bags is inorganic, Monto Clay (similar to turface but rounder and bigger) and Bonsai Block. The water in my BC tub either evaporates too fast or the tree drinks it too fast. Between 8:30 - 2:30 all the excess water is almost gone. Also, every tree is watered by a metered spitter, so it is not like running a hose over them 3 times a day. 70% of my trees are in Root Pouch in an above ground bed with the sides covered with pine back mulch. The rest are either on pouches or on root maker pots above ground, those dry out faster. Only one so far on a bonsai pot in development.

 

[BobbyLane]

They were drying out between watering and the Texas heat was not helping. First watering at 8:30 runs for 5 min, the next 2 run for 2 minutes. All the substrate in the bags is inorganic, Monto Clay (similar to turface but rounder and bigger) and Bonsai Block. The water in my BC tub either evaporates too fast or the tree drinks it too fast. Between 8:30 - 2:30 all the excess water is almost gone. Also, every tree is watered by a metered spitter, so it is not like running a hose over them 3 times a day. 70% of my trees are in Root Pouch in an above ground bed with the sides covered with pine back mulch. The rest are either on pouches or on root maker pots above ground, those dry out faster. Only one so far on a bonsai pot in development.

Ah I see, only time I watered at that frequency was during freak weather conditions, like times when the UK was gripped in extended heatwaves, two months no rain, that type of thing. Not that my pots were drying out, only the top soil would be with my mix. But at those times I used the opportunity to fertilize heavily diluted doses at each watering. This was the result of heavy watering and feeding during a heatwave.
I think if your mix drys out after one or two full waterings/soaks, in your climate, it might not be the best mix for you. but if you dont mind watering 3 times a day its all good I guess.


I believe the theory behind Walter's aggressive watering approach, wasnt because his pots were drying out too quickly, but rather because he wanted to apply ferts at every watering. Been a while since I read the article though, I could be slightly off. Anyway, I believe he's since changed his approach and doesnt feed aggressively any more.
I only water once a day in a normal summer, and still feed at every watering, because ive had great results. I dont mind a little course growth and know when to hold back if the growth is becoming too course. I can spot the signs. So if im using miracle gro at every watering, I may hold off and just go with tomato feed. But usually I alternate the two.

 

[Paradox]

Didn't read the blog or watch the video but did skim through the thread. This is my experience/practice when it comes to watering.

The first few years I had trees, I hand watered with a hose after work every day. Each tree had a chopstick in the pot that I would check. Took me an hour.

I tended to be heavy on the watering so I use an open, inorganic soil so overwatering is almost impossible.

Then I decided to go to the National show in Rochester NY for the weekend and it was going to be a hot weekend so leaving the trees for 4 days without watering wasn't going to work out well. I wasn't going to burden anyone with an hour of work every day.

So I set up a hose and lawn sprinkler with a timer and made sure it covered the area and ran it to see how long was needed for a good amount of water, set it to water each morning and I left for the weekend.

I didn't start thinking about taking it down until the end of the next week, but I looked around the yard at the trees and they all seemed happier than ever. So I decided to save myself some work and let the sprinklers handle it. The trees were getting watered at the best time of day for them (morning) and I didn't have to spend an hour doing it every day. Not that I don't still walk around and look at them but it takes less time.

I've learned that the watering needs vary from spring to summer to fall and I adjust the interval between watering as temperatures rise from spring to fall. Early spring and fall when it's cooler, the pines and juniper get watered every other day. That goes to every day once temperatures hit 75 to 80. Deciduous get once a day regardless. Everything gets watered twice a day if it hits 90 or 95 or if I come home and they look like they need it.

I keep a rain guage in the yard and record daily rainfall. If we get more than half an inch, I can turn off the sprinklers for the next day.

I agree that watering is a skill we need to master but I do think you can learn what works for your trees, in your soil, in your yard, in your location and keep it uncomplicated.

 

[leatherback]

I agree that watering is a skill we need to master but I do think you can learn what works for your trees, in your soil, in your yard, in your location and keep it uncomplicated.

agreed.

I have quickly learned that some experts have a knack for making straightforward processes in bonsai feel very difficult. I at times wonder why...

 

[Paradox]

agreed.

I have quickly learned that some experts have a knack for making straightforward processes in bonsai feel very difficult. I at times wonder why...

Nothing else to talk about/show at the time?