Learning Black Hills Spruce

[Backwardsvg]

So I did it again, went to HD and found a nice black hills spruce for $15 originally $75 I believe. I dug a bit around the base and took the picture and dug a bit more to find even more mass below that. I did not want to dig any deeper but i assume it continues.

Trying to learn from mistakes so I am wondering if anyone has good resources / ideas on how to proceed here. It is in almost a pure sand substrate and a egg carton like planter with chicken wire mesh on the outside holding it together. I do not see any burlap in the pot.

I would assume maybe a pruning August/ Sept and then possibly a repot the following spring? Or maybe just leave it be this year and only a repot next year?

Thanks for the help!

 

[Shogun610]

Balled heavy clay nursery material such as this, best to repot first in spring as buds start to swell. Then following in fall or next year to start brainstorming and branch selection. 1 insult per season or year depending on its health. First priority is hands off this year.

 

[Backwardsvg]

I may be wrong but I do not see burlap/ clay in this one shockingly, thank God. It seems like this was grown in almost 90% sand 10% soil. I still wont touch it till next spring. .

 

[Shogun610]

I may be wrong but I do not see burlap/ clay in this one shockingly. It seems like this was grown in almost 90% sand 10% soil. I still wont touch it till next spring but I am not seeing any clay in this one (from what I can see), thank God.

It’s still heavy field soil so same approach anyway.

 

[sorce]

If you Repot it tomorrow, you'll know by spring what you can further remove.



Sorce

 

[Backwardsvg]

@sorce could I do the reverse? Take some off now and repot later?

I know @Shogun610 you are saying let it sit till next spring for a repot, are you saying to not trim anything to conserve all energy for the repot or what is the reasoning for leaving it untouched for the fall season?

 

[sorce]

I reckon you could, but it always leaves the question of how long to wait, and how much more furked urp are the roots going to be then.

Ice cold mission number one should always be removal from the nursery pot IMO.

You could flirt with danger a bit and isolate the keeper future from the sacrifice apex by skinning everything in between and repotting it.

Kinda like this except DON'T cut off the apex like I did, that was just to prove a point.


I'm certain the intact apical energy is enough to power through a repot.

What I'm yet unsure of, is how likely a given tree is to abandon the low keeper growth in favor of the top, especially if a repot is severe.

So I reckon best best is leaving it fully intact for Repot.

I trust your gut.

Sorce

 

[Shogun610]

@sorce could I do the reverse? Take some off now and repot later?

I know @Shogun610 you are saying let it sit till next spring for a repot, are you saying to not trim anything to conserve all energy for the repot or what is the reasoning for leaving it untouched for the fall season?

Leave on as much foliage to let it accumulate sugars and starches for upcoming vascular growth in the fall. Fall is prime time for vascular growth.. so you allow the roots to accumulate more energy so that it stores up energy for winter dormancy and awakening in spring. Spring is prime to repot since all energy is moving upwards the trunk and for the foliage buds to start moving. Right now the tree is focused on accumulating energy. When you remove that feedback system in the wrong season it leads to issues.

 

[rockm]

After reading Source's responses here, I can't keep my mouth shut. It's silly and could put you behind the 8 ball with the tree. The "good time to repot" thing IS FOR FREAKING CROP PLANTS, NOT LANDSCAPE CONIFERS. Also if that tree is in mostly sand, lifting it out of that pot risks an automatic bare rooting and trouble. The "number one stone cold mission" for this tree is to not fuck it up with impatience and wrong-headed crap.

Sorry...

 

[sorce]

Good thing he's not talking about me.

And good thing these potted spruce I have, which aren't "landscape" by definition, didn't get the memo that they aren't "crop plants", cuz they were all repotted successfully to the sound of leftover fireworks.

Which did in fact come the night of the 16th.

That is how I know for sure they will live!

When Druid Beliefs turn 'Merican.

Oh yeah, that was just Bullshit!

Sorce

 

[sorce]

Of the Calendar.....
It merely the guide.

The true results are the true results.

If you need to ask someone for directions to a destination because you lost your map, when you make it to the destination, it doesn't then make your map wrong.

Destination achieved.

Sorce

 

[Backwardsvg]

Well let’s let the controversies fly at this point.

I see many say Picea are not good for trunk chops, I have seen some others say they can be ok.

This tree whenever it is repotted or healthy etc could you do a trunk chop? It is about 5 foot high which obviously I do not want in the end.

Can you do major trunk chops 50-60% or do you have to do it in stages 20% recover 20% recover etc? I know they are apical driven so taking too much off the top seems risky but at the same time this happens in nature and I see other bonsai that look to be chopped?

So let’s hear it

 

[Shogun610]

Literally have you a poka yoke for ensuring this trees health into spring repotting .. just leave it alone for rest of year why is that so hard

 

[Backwardsvg]

I have no idea what a poka yoke means but I’m not going to touch the tree so not sure what you mean really? Also no need to be insulting, I’d prefer things to stay cordial and in a spirit of learning. You don’t know what you don’t know until you know it.

I said hypothetically if the tree was healthy and after a repot or without doing either etc. can this type of tree take trunk chops? I am trying to get a future style idea in my head. I have a few but I want to know if I can shorten it?

I am trying to gather knowledge on spruce. I don’t really see any super clear playbooks on them other than light pruning, wiring, refinement so I’m asking questions about things I cannot find. I don’t see a great story from nursery to pre bonsai to finished bonsai on this type of spruce.

If these questions are bothering you, you do not need to respond but I do appreciate your input

*seems like this can be compared closely to an engelmann spruce*

 

[sorce]

Unpotted, this is probably a good time to chop it, so what's left gets the message it's necessary for survival by winter.

Who cares! All you have to do is go back to HD with a receipt for a new one if it dies!

#sawburyjones

Sorce

 

[rockm]

Trunk chop isn't going to hurt it much. I would, however, jin the top. I don't know who advised trunk chops aren't good for spruce, but I've done it with Alberta spruce. Didn't make any difference. I would, however, chop gradually not because of horticultural reasons, but esthetics. Gradual reduction leaves you room to maneuver with your design. Taking it all at once eliminates most options...

 

[Backwardsvg]

@rockm thanks for the input. I was seeing differing opinions. But this is good to know it is possible. I do like the top jin idea. I was thinking either that or a lightning strike style. Still pondering and looking at the tree. We'll see where it ends up.

whenever the time comes I am thinking about here for a first reduction roughly 35-40% reduced. Think that may be a bit extreme? It gives me room to reduce further down if necessary. Maybe I cut a bit higher at more 25%.

 

[James W.]

I would start removing a few branches to let air and light into the interior so as to preserve any small, short branches that will be useful in the future. Remember to leave as much as you can to support recovery after your repot next spring. It seems that this structural pruning can take place almost any time.
Mine did not seem to mind living a couple of years in that heavy fine sand they came in.
Anyone who wants to see mine that were almost exactly like this - this thread