Late summer repotting

[Maloghurst]

That's not true, roots will continue to grow in the winter as long as the soil isn't frozen.

What are you referring to? We don’t get much freezing temps here but we definitely have a dormant period. You’ll have to explain to me or point me to the literature where roots will continue growing year round. If the growth is so minimal as to have no real effect then why mention it? Not sure where this is from but all the studies I’ve read are in line with this graph.

 

[M. Frary]

But, I've been told before that if you're not willing to spend hundreds of dollars on a piece of stock and hone your skills to perfection you don't belong in the art

Whoever said that actually has more money than brains.
I have a few trees that are worth in the hundreds of dollars.
The most I spent on any of them is $7.00.
There is no need to spend hundreds of dollars on a tree if you're willing to spend the time.
The hundreds of dollars you pay for is someone's time.

 

[sorce]

That's not true, roots will continue to grow in the winter as long as the soil isn't frozen.

And thru the summer if not too hot.

If there are "periods", it's every moon.

I would love to see the natural conditions in which these said root growth "periods" are observed.

Sounds completely made up at best.

Trees are more opportunistic than stupid.

Sorce

 

[Cable]

What are you referring to? We don’t get much freezing temps here but we definitely have a dormant period. You’ll have to explain to me or point me to the literature where roots will continue growing year round. If the growth is so minimal as to have no real effect then why mention it? Not sure where this is from but all the studies I’ve read are in line with this graph.

Only took 30 seconds to research this but here's one: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...allacies.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3pAK1jX5_VOCaqpFpCTq8a

"By repeatedly digging up, measuring, and then reburying them, researchers have observed that roots can grow throughout the winter—whenever soil temperatures are above 5 degrees C (40 F) (Hammerle, 1901; Crider, 1928; Ladefoged, 1939)."

I learned it because my old house had issues with tree roots blocking my sewer lines and usually they had to be cleaned out during the winter.

 

[Cable]

So, I re-potted the three jap maples last night. I was pretty ho-hum about them because they looked plain and straight in the pots (though the littlest one had some curves). It turns out I was correct in that the pots were full of clay and heavy soil (pretty good garden soil at least). I was wrong about the other two trees, though. They were both planted far too deep and below ground I found some nice movement and nice thick roots. Now the after care begins.

Below are the three trees. I found out a little more about them. Apparently they were dug up from my sister's yard so they were seedlings. My brother-in-law didn't like them because they grew too slowly. My dad took them and held onto them for a year or so but he also didn't like them because they grew too slow so gave them to me. I like them.

 

[sorce]

By repeatedly digging up, measuring, and then reburying them, researchers have observed that roots can grow throughout the winter—whenever soil temperatures are above 5 degrees C (40 F) (Hammerle, 1901; Crider, 1928; Ladefoged, 1939)."

I learned it because my old house had issues with tree roots blocking my sewer lines and usually they had to be cleaned out during the winter.

See I can't get behind dug up and measured. We know pruning causes more growth, and digging causes pruning.

But I also first heard it in regards to plumbing!

Sorce

 

[Forsoothe!]

I did not say anyone anytime can repot any tree. My point (and you quoted it) was exactly what you stated. “Seems that when extensive root work is done it will give it the best chance to have both root growth periods in a year before going into winter dormancy.” Were you just confirming my statement? Sorry I’m just confused are we saying the same thing?

Sorry for the confusion, I am seconding your thought and adding, a little clumsily, that whenever it's done the perpetrator should be aware of the plant's need to have root growth before winter, and I think the more, the better.

 

[Forsoothe!]

What does the amount of growth have to do with it?
There are a lot of blanks to fill in for me to follow why you think/believe this.

It's putting resources away for use in spring. If you cut off all the roots, you'd have some result. If you leave all the roots alone, you'd have a different result. I think the middle ground would have a spread of results, probably linear.

 

[Forsoothe!]

That's not true, roots will continue to grow in the winter as long as the soil isn't frozen.

I want to echo this. I don't have any charts or studies to present, but my experience watching things grow for 50 years leads me to believe that, yes, there is a quiescent period, some different number of days for each species, but when that period is satisfied, growth returns when local conditions permit, and they go into and out of a plant ~coma~ when conditions change for the worse. That happens a lot in SE Michigan over many months from January to April. I see blue Periwinkle flowers in my borders almost every month over winter. Often, in the suburbs where the ground is protected from howling winter by buildings and the sun can warm the land and concrete between houses, and the houses occupy ~20 or 25% of the space, the ground doesn't get much below 30°F. I have measured continually the temperature of strategic parts of my garden for about 20 years (years ago), and 29, 30 or 31°F in the first 6" of soil under mulch, or ground cover, or snow were the most common readings. I used these readings to gauge my gardening activities, for about 20 years.

This, "growing when conditions permit", allows plants to grow in zones ~4 thru 9, etc. The difference in season length can be enormous, but they satisfy their needs for rest and are then ready, willing, and able to grow. There is data for genus Hosta, 700 hours. They are put into dormancy by the progression of conditions of late summer and autumn: completion of ripening seeds, maturing buds for next year, exhaustion of leaf surfaces, reduced heat and sun photo-period/intensity, dryer weather, frost, et al, the precise combination of these cascading factors locally dependent.

How much root growth in winter and early spring? I don't know, I can't see underground, but I can see what I believe is witness to growth.

 

[Maloghurst]

That's not true, roots will continue to grow in the winter as long as the soil isn't frozen.

Only took 30 seconds to research this but here's one: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=20&ved=2ahUKEwjaxPnL6frjAhVSbc0KHWPUCmMQFjATegQICRAC&url=http://arnoldia.arboretum.harvard.edu/pdf/articles/1989-49-4-tree-roots-facts-and-fallacies.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3pAK1jX5_VOCaqpFpCTq8a

"By repeatedly digging up, measuring, and then reburying them, researchers have observed that roots can grow throughout the winter—whenever soil temperatures are above 5 degrees C (40 F) (Hammerle, 1901; Crider, 1928; Ladefoged, 1939)."

I learned it because my old house had issues with tree roots blocking my sewer lines and usually they had to be cleaned out during the winter.

This is a far cry from your first statement of “roots WILL continue to grow as long as the ground is not frozen” if you are repeatedly damaging roots of a tree then this study shows that a tree CAN grow roots even in a state of dormancy. Although 40f is a ways from frozen as well. The ground will not even begin to freeze until temps are 32 f for a period of time.
Most studies show that trees do not grow roots while dormant in winter. Including the one you posted and others I’ve read.

 

[Cable]

I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[wireme]

I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I met some students once who dug a big hole in the forest up in the Alps somewhere and lined it with plexiglass. Then cover the hole with a tarp. They went down on a regular basis throughout the year and traced the roots with colour codes according to dates. They gave a presentation and had the plexiglass with them at this conference I was at. Pretty cool, yeah some root growth basically all year, a fair bit over winter with 5’ of snow above but the soil not frozen. I really don’t remember any detail of when the main growth activities were.

 

[Maloghurst]

I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

All I’m saying is there are many more studies showing a dormant period of root growth through winter. So you just saying “not true” to that doesn’t seem to serve any purpose to me.
There are many exceptions to the rules. My trees started budding last January when the temps hit 70 F then went back into dormancy. That could also prove that roots were growing too then stopped again. But there is still a dormant period in my trees in winter, even when not frozen.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Everything about growing things and climate and local conditions of the whole planet, all "facts" are plastic on a sliding scale and each of us scattered all over the place needs to filter it for what we can, for our purposes, where we are. I'm getting tired of the nitpicking. If someone in Alaska says "X" and someone in Bali says, "not true because in my backyard...", that's a waste of time. The other 5 billion people don't need to hear an argument why, if it is isn't so in Bali it can't be true elsewhere, or why it is in Alaska, it's not necessarily germane elsewhere. We all are offering what we think is important to consider in hopes of helping others and having them reciprocate. I think we're trying to build a model of generalities that each of us can pluck something useful from. Firstly, we need data. OK, so we have a lot more anecdotal than scientific, but we can work with what we have.

 

[sorce]

sliding scale and each of us scattered all over the place needs to filter it for what we can, for our purposes, where we are. I'm getting tired of the nitpicking. If someone in Alaska says "X" and someone in Bali says, "not true because in my backyard...", that's a waste of time. The other 5 billion people don't need to hear an argument why, if it is isn't so in Bali it can't be true elsewhere, or why it is in Alaska, it's not necessarily germane elsewhere. We all are offering what we think is important to consider in hopes of helping others

This is why I believe, as generated by this thread, that we should consider the Summer Solstice as a beginning point where we are all (hemisphere particular) even.

Growing season's may start earlier or later, and extend earlier and later, but our middle remains the solstice as far as timing.

Then we can use points to 100 in both directions with point values being the same across maps.

My -36 (late April to May?) Is the same as Alabam's -36, (late March-early April?)
Wireme's -36 (late may early June?)

Same.

Leaf fall is 100 points.

Repot x points before 100 for safety.
I believe the trees know where they are and will "winter-up" accordingly. For this...maybe one week max differential.

Sorce

 

[Arnold_K]

A very constructiv and purposeful posting!
Not bad for a "Nonsense rascal" ...
' didn't know that you're such a wise guy ... Really! ...

 

[Saddler]

This is why I believe, as generated by this thread, that we should consider the Summer Solstice as a beginning point where we are all (hemisphere particular) even.

Growing season's may start earlier or later, and extend earlier and later, but our middle remains the solstice as far as timing.

Then we can use points to 100 in both directions with point values being the same across maps.

My -36 (late April to May?) Is the same as Alabam's -36, (late March-early April?)
Wireme's -36 (late may early June?)

Same.

Leaf fall is 100 points.

Repot x points before 100 for safety.
I believe the trees know where they are and will "winter-up" accordingly. For this...maybe one week max differential.

Sorce

Except that doesn’t always work. In the Yukon where I used to live, the growing season doesn’t start until very late. In Whitehorse the last spring frost is June 12.

 

[Cable]

I met some students once who dug a big hole in the forest up in the Alps somewhere and lined it with plexiglass. Then cover the hole with a tarp. They went down on a regular basis throughout the year and traced the roots with colour codes according to dates. They gave a presentation and had the plexiglass with them at this conference I was at. Pretty cool, yeah some root growth basically all year, a fair bit over winter with 5’ of snow above but the soil not frozen. I really don’t remember any detail of when the main growth activities were.

Nope, that couldn't have happened. Apparently they just made it up...

 

[leatherback]

I met some students once who dug a big hole in the forest up in the Alps somewhere and lined it with plexiglass.

Like the Austrian Rhizoboxes by than a bit larger? Cool

 

[wireme]

Like the Austrian Rhizoboxes by than a bit larger? Cool

Maybe the same? It was a while ago, international erosion control bioengineering conference. The may have been Austrian and they did call it rhizo-somethingorother, I don’t remember. Mostly I just remember beIng surprised at the growth of conifer roots over winter in the mountains, at the time I thought there wouldn’t be much happening. My own trees stay frozen solid for many months here being shallowly mulched but I imagine folks in warmer places get root growth over winter in pots.