Kepplers contribution for 2016 on sniping and bickering.

[Smoke]

It occurs to me that over the past few years sniping and bickering can cause threads to deflate and stop an otherwise useful exchange of information. I wanted to write this post several months ago, didn't, but recent events on several threads has caused me to write what I wasn't going to write.

The bickering starts in certain threads, usually over things like pine management, soil components, recently wiring trees, repotting and things like that. What I have found is that some here study with professionals. That kind of study is a great time saver in an art that can take decades to master. There is nothing like gathering technique and tips from someone that has done it all and learned from someone even more professional.

With that said, what I have noticed, even more so lately is that under the tutalage of a professional, some self thinking is lost. There seems to be only the professionals way or nothing. I have been doing bonsai long enough to understand that not all professionals see bonsai the same way. They do not always agree with the ways of other professionals and can be quite harsh about it. Wait a minute I said that wrong, the professionals usually say nothing, the students of "their" professional seem to do all the talking.

I also find that students of the same professionals seem to stick together. This is a natural tendency in any learning situation when good hard money is spent on the education. I have always said that if someone wishes to take their plant to a workshop in a club setting with a traveling professional, and then not wish to do the work the professional suggests he do, then why bring the tree and the cash to not do the work? Seems pretty silly to me. I have seen many people never do what is suggested and I can only wonder why. I get why someone would take off wire and put on wire then take it all off again. Though I can also tell that person to stick it up their ass, cause all of this will come off in a year and I will do it again. The tree is in training. That person has paid good money to be told to take the wire off and on as long is needed to meet the teachers expectation. I am quite sure that the first wire that was put on would have done the job and was probably quite good. Who is going to tell their teacher to stick it up their ass? In the end this strict adherence to the teacher rule becomes the only truth and everything else is crap. I just don't see it that way. I don't run my life that way nor my hobbies. Probably why I don't have a teacher...Hah!

My reason for writing this thread and what I hope to let those that wish to bicker about my methods or your methods is this. I don't study with a professional. I don't pay anyone any money to learn from a professional. I can pretty much say what I please since I owe nothing to anyone. What I do or say in bonsai is not going to get back to my teacher. I do not have to slavashly use his or her name to make my point. I like to suggest the things I do in bonsai and success and failure I have had. But if you do not wish to do it or want to continue doing it the way you do, I am not going to tell you your wrong and it will not work or that's the wrong way. Your doing it your way. That's my commitment for 2016.

I teach workshops and have spent years traveling the state doing demos in years past. In those demos and workshops I always professed the absolute correct way to do any task. do I always follow what I preach? Hell no. My wire is not always tight, not always even, not always 44.7 degrees of parallel and yes, sometimes crossing wires...[gasp], Al has crossing wires! I go to many if not ten to twelve shows a year or more, and I have seen plenty of professionals trees with less that steller wire.

So if you go to a professional, good for you. I hope you all get your monies worth. Just know that there are many here that make plenty of contributions to bonsai that do not work with a professional and their body of work is just as worthy of respect as anyone else's. This is a great place to learn and a damn cool group of people I can call my friends from all over the USA and beyond. I suggest we post the work and leave all the grandstanding and bragging at the professional's yard.

That's the way I'm gonna treat it in 2016!

 

[Vance Wood]

Glad you said all of this Al. I have wished I could have written it many times over having been pilloried by the students of certain teachers a time or two.

 

[sorce]

This is like finding out Jordan is playing baseball.

Sorce

 

[Stickroot]

This is like finding out Jordan is playing baseball.

Sorce

I feel like I know why you said this, buuuut if not....... I still like it twice

 

[Adair M]

Sounds like a lot of this was directed at me. Ok, I'll stop referring to my sensei if that offends you. His methods of teaching may not appeal to you, but they do to me. To each their own.

The cost of the classes I paid my sensei are far less than the cost of the travel to get and stay there. And he pays for lunch and dinner.

Smoke, you are blessed to live in an area where you can see 10 or more shows a year within driving distance. Many of us don't.

I don't think the traveling master, bring your own tree workshops are a good way to teach bonsai. Or rather, I should say I don't think that's the best way to learn bonsai. Around here, the local club brings in several artists a year. They try to bring in different masters each year. So, in a 3 or 4 hour work shop, 6 or 8 or 10 people work on different trees, of different species, different styles. Some of these trees have been to other masters workshops. Each master has his own style, his technique, his specialty. These trees that get redesigned by each master, is that the best way to go?

I don't think so.

In the classes I took, we got to work on tree (or several trees), then 3 or 4 months later see it again. We could see the effect of the work we had done in the previous session. If there's another procedure yo be done, we did it, then 3 or 4 months later got to see it again. Actually, the time away is a benefit. When I saw the change from the previous session, the tree had really changed! At home, my trees undergo the change slowly over that period of time, so it's harder to see the real impact. Because it happens gradually over time.

I, too, teach workshops and classes on a part time basis. I encourage my students to bring the same tree back to another workshop. To continue the process along. Not start a new journey.

On this forum, I try to share my learning experiences so that others who may not be as fortunate as I might benefit from them. Perhaps you object to my writing style. I don't know. But if you find my posts offensive, well, I know you know how to use the ignore button.

 

[GroveKeeper]

From what I've seen, the people who treat the words of the professionals as gospel tend not to have particularly interesting trees. Because they see a definitive "right" and "wrong" path in everything, they don't experiment. Since their trees are bland, they try to set themselves apart by becoming part of an enlightened few that take it upon themselves to deliver the truth of the masters.

I don't have any good trees either, but I don't go around telling people that there is only one way of doing anything.

 

[Smoke]

Sounds like a lot of this was directed at me. Ok, I'll stop referring to my sensei if that offends you. His methods of teaching may not appeal to you, but they do to me. To each their own.

The cost of the classes I paid my sensei are far less than the cost of the travel to get and stay there. And he pays for lunch and dinner.

Smoke, you are blessed to live in an area where you can see 10 or more shows a year within driving distance. Many of us don't.

I don't think the traveling master, bring your own tree workshops are a good way to teach bonsai. Or rather, I should say I don't think that's the best way to learn bonsai. Around here, the local club brings in several artists a year. They try to bring in different masters each year. So, in a 3 or 4 hour work shop, 6 or 8 or 10 people work on different trees, of different species, different styles. Some of these trees have been to other masters workshops. Each master has his own style, his technique, his specialty. These trees that get redesigned by each master, is that the best way to go?

I don't think so.

In the classes I took, we got to work on tree (or several trees), then 3 or 4 months later see it again. We could see the effect of the work we had done in the previous session. If there's another procedure yo be done, we did it, then 3 or 4 months later got to see it again. Actually, the time away is a benefit. When I saw the change from the previous session, the tree had really changed! At home, my trees undergo the change slowly over that period of time, so it's harder to see the real impact. Because it happens gradually over time.

I, too, teach workshops and classes on a part time basis. I encourage my students to bring the same tree back to another workshop. To continue the process along. Not start a new journey.

On this forum, I try to share my learning experiences so that others who may not be as fortunate as I might benefit from them. Perhaps you object to my writing style. I don't know. But if you find my posts offensive, well, I know you know how to use the ignore button.

No, actually some was directed at Andrew. I can't find fault with anything you said. I agree with every thing you said. I agree with everything Andrew says or parrots. Thats not the issue. The issue is, what do YOU think not what your teacher thinks. There is a difference. I want to know what Adair thinks, not what Boon thinks, If I wanted that I would pay Boon and get it first hand.

If you wish to share your experience then by all means share it, just lie and tell us it was all you cause I'm tired of hearing what Boon does and thinks. If Boon wishes to share then let him exercise his membership in this forum.

Above you said "I don't think so" to the use of several professionals. That is your opinion, not shared by many. There are people here that would kill to see several professionals a year. If going to one professional and selling my soul to that teacher is all there is, then sorry, I don't like what it turns you into. I'm my own man, good or bad. I see what my trees do over time, that's why I take pictures....for free

 

[Smoke]

BTW, be content in the fact that tomorrow morning I will never soapbox again, I'm just taking advantage of being an ass for these last few hours.

yet....starting tomorrow this place will be that much more boring.....

 

[Vance Wood]

Well Said Al. That is exactly right as far as I am concerned. It is a sad state of affairs when some that frequent this site are made to feel inferior because they don't have a particular teacher for a Sensei. However this is bonsai not Karate. I also know what it is like to all of a sudden find a heard of people comming at you because you have said something that was contrary to their teacher. I used to have to put up with gang mentality when I was in High School, and I didn't like it much then and I don't like it much now. Now that I have said it I might just as well put a point on the pencil.

There is a gang mentality on this forum: Certain students of a certain teacher on this forum will go after you if they feel you have said something that is contrary to what their teacher has said. If I was that teacher I would be pissed having what I have been teaching turned into such a negative force. It does not exactly reflect positively on my reputation. However in this instance I think that particular teacher thinks it's cute like the parent of a bully allows his kid to bully another child at school, and wont do anything to stop it. I have to say it is not as bad as it used to be. But: It used to be so bad there was one individual that used to fill the above parameters that used to post here all of the time and boasted great things and was quick to tell you or anyone else he encountered how bad they were doing bonsai. The truth was he had only one tree one lonely little JBP he had been working on for the number of years he had been studying with this legendary teacher and was no better off than he was before he started. He; however, had it set in his mind that just being in close proximity with this teacher he was somehow endowed with the same knowledge and talent. That was never true or visible in his future.

 

[Smoke]

I felt like sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees, pun intended. I can tell you a little story.. it won't take long I promise.



The tree above had a lower branch that died. I had to place another branch from above in its place to keep the original flow of the tree. At last years invasive, Goon showed us how to make a correct turnbuckle using thin wire instead of a twin thick wire. I used to do it that way but the invasive opened my eyes to how it should be done. Originally this tree was wired in aluminum, at my first invasive Goon told us that all conifers should be wired with copper and broadleaf trees can be wired with aluminum. The invasive taught me that copper can be used in place of aluminum of a much smaller diameter. Until I went to the invasive I did not know this.

I drive a battery powered car?


In me buying pounds of copper, I have found that Jim Gremel's wire is the best. He is a fellow Goon student and takes the invasives as well. I have tried others but Gremel has the softest. Did I mention its softest? I go to four invasives a year. I fly out to all of them. They cover all aspects of tree management over the course of the four seasons. Repotting is of course one of the best invasives. It covers all aspects of the tree from removing to securing the tree in the pot. We use a mix developed by Goon called "Goon mix" by its adherents. The word soil does not do this stuff justice, this is premuim stuff. One of the things I learned at the last invasive is the use of the finishing trowel to tamp down the soil. Goon use a very long articulated tamper that he pats the top of the soil with. I never really used one before in my past 35 years, but now that I go to the invasives I do it at all repottings. I'm not sure what it does or if it is even necessary but Goon uses it so I do too.

Did I mention I drive an expensive battery powered car?


I have Masakuni tools. I don't know why. They were more expensive than the rest so I figure they must work better. Ma-sa-ku-ni...man that rolls right off your tongue, right.

So I fly out to California four times a year to do the invasives with Goon. Invasives, just the word alone is intimidating. I like that. I also find that when posting to discussion forums with noobs that my posts hold more clout when I use the words "invasives" and "Goon". Money well spent. Lots of money, I fly to California four times a year, to inspect the trees I don't wish to transport, I just pay room and board.

You sure I mentioned the battery car?




Now this may be a bit of satire at your expense Adair, but when I read your posts over the course of a year this is how they sound to me. Just thought you should know.....

 

[Stickroot]

I felt like sometimes its hard to see the forest for the trees, pun intended. I can tell you a little story.. it won't take long I promise.

View attachment 90592

The tree above had a lower branch that died. I had to place another branch from above in its place to keep the original flow of the tree. At last years invasive, Goon showed us how to make a correct turnbuckle using thin wire instead of a twin thick wire. I used to do it that way but the invasive opened my eyes to how it should be done. Originally this tree was wired in aluminum, at my first invasive Goon told us that all conifers should be wired with copper and broadleaf trees can be wired with aluminum. The invasive taught me that copper can be used in place of aluminum of a much smaller diameter. Until I went to the invasive I did not know this.

I drive a battery powered car?
View attachment 90593

In me buying pounds of copper, I have found that Jim Gremel's wire is the best. He is a fellow Goon student and takes the invasives as well. I have tried others but Gremel has the softest. Did I mention its softest? I go to four invasives a year. I fly out to all of them. They cover all aspects of tree management over the course of the four seasons. Repotting is of course one of the best invasives. It covers all aspects of the tree from removing to securing the tree in the pot. We use a mix developed by Goon called "Goon mix" by its adherents. The word soil does not do this stuff justice, this is premuim stuff. One of the things I learned at the last invasive is the use of the finishing trowel to tamp down the soil. Goon use a very long articulated tamper that he pats the top of the soil with. I never really used one before in my past 35 years, but now that I go to the invasives I do it at all repottings. I'm not sure what it does or if it is even necessary but Goon uses it so I do too.

Did I mention I drive an expensive battery powered car?
View attachment 90593

I have Masakuni tools. I don't know why. They were more expensive than the rest so I figure they must work better. Ma-sa-ku-ni...man that rolls right off your tongue, right.

So I fly out to California four times a year to do the invasives with Goon. Invasives, just the word alone is intimidating. I like that. I also find that when posting to discussion forums with noobs that my posts hold more clout when I use the words "invasives" and "Goon". Money well spent. Lots of money, I fly to California four times a year, to inspect the trees I don't wish to transport, I just pay room and board.

You sure I mentioned the battery car?

View attachment 90593


Now this may be a bit of satire at your expense Adair, but when I read your posts over the course of a year this is how they sound to me. Just thought you should know.....

Geez fella! I guess when you suck it up all day... It's all that will come out.

 

[Mellow Mullet]

Now this may be a bit of satire at your expense Adair, but when I read your posts over the course of a year this is how they sound to me. Just thought you should know.....

Me, too. That is how I read them. That is not saying that occasionally I glean a nugget or two of valuable info from the posts, but when they all start with "Boon says..."

Just say," I do it this way..."; or, "I have tried this and it works..."; or, just don't throw the Boon stuff around so much.

John

 

[Djtommy]

Yes i also think we should not send kids to school anymore.
I mean, 1+1=2.. they should figger it out by themselves..

 

[Djtommy]

i wonder smoke, what exactly dont you like about someone telling information on a subject that he learned from someone else? I know lots of stuff that i learned from someone else, have never put to use but i know for a fact is correct..everyone who went to school and reads now and then probably does.
Personally when it comes to bonsai i do like to know where the info came from, if he learned himself and if not from who did he get the info..

 

[jeremy_norbury]

My 2016 is already a better place.

 

[Anthony]

The psychology of it is -

When you study with someone, you leave your personality at the door.
You often lose enough perspective, to need 4 or 5 or more years of alone time to recover.
K has spoken out about this a few times on IBC, as it occurs in Fine Art frequently.

However for Mr. Adair [ Sifu ] I say this about him, when he does not know something, he
says he does not know ----------- I respect him for that!!

Happy New Year !!
May thongs and butt creases abound.
Respect to all of the older heads.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[M. Frary]

i wonder smoke, what exactly dont you like about someone telling information on a subject that he learned from someone else? I know lots of stuff that i learned from someone else, have never put to use but i know for a fact is correct..everyone who went to school and reads now and then probably does.
Personally when it comes to bonsai i do like to know where the info came from, if he learned himself and if not from who did he get the info..

Who did Boon learn from?
Does he invoke that guys name when he teaches a technique? Or does he just say "we do it this way"
He didn't invent any of these techniques or soil or any of it. He is just passing along the knowledge.
When you write your name do you say Mrs. Smith taught me this in 1st grade?
Or in Andrews case,post links to Mrs.Smith's 1st grade class.
I'm learning about mugo and Scots pines. From Vance. I don't run around and say Vance says,Vance says. I just pass on information I've learned from.
If you like everytime I post something I've learned from him I'll say so. You'll get tired of it, Hell,Vance would get tired of it pretty fast too.
Once you learn something from anybody it's yours,not theirs anymore.
I can also see Andrew ,Adair and others who go to professionals being proud of that too. Who wouldn't be. Lots of time and money put into this. Get to pay to work on someone else's trees. Get opportunities to see wonderful trees in person. Get shots at buying excellent stock trees to start with. But these pros aren't the only ones who know this stuff. They just figured out a way to get people to pay for that knowledge.
If you pay for something that other people can get for free does paying for it make it worth more?

 

[Vance Wood]

I think Adair is a real asset to this forum in particular and to bonsai in general. I have had these discussions with Adair and I don't have a problem with him going out to visit Boon because he likes Boon and has a good excuse to go out to that part of the country. As long as he has the money and the need for his teaching that's OK with me. My only problem, as I said earlier, is the kind of treatment one can encounter with some of his students who tend to think more like disciples of Zoaester than students of bonsai. Some of them can be pretty bad and don't care who they try to destroy. The entire issue with Will Heath goes back to this.

 

[Djtommy]

Who did Boon learn from?
Does he invoke that guys name when he teaches a technique? Or does he just say "we do it this way"
He didn't invent any of these techniques or soil or any of it. He is just passing along the knowledge.
When you write your name do you say Mrs. Smith taught me this in 1st grade?
Or in Andrews case,post links to Mrs.Smith's 1st grade class.
I'm learning about mugo and Scots pines. From Vance. I don't run around and say Vance says,Vance says. I just pass on information I've learned from.
If you like everytime I post something I've learned from him I'll say so. You'll get tired of it, Hell,Vance would get tired of it pretty fast too.
Once you learn something from anybody it's yours,not theirs anymore.
I can also see Andrew ,Adair and others who go to professionals being proud of that too. Who wouldn't be. Lots of time and money put into this. Get to pay to work on someone else's trees. Get opportunities to see wonderful trees in person. Get shots at buying excellent stock trees to start with. But these pros aren't the only ones who know this stuff. They just figured out a way to get people to pay for that knowledge.
If you pay for something that other people can get for free does paying for it make it worth more?

I guess you are right, its not always needed to say where you got the info if it is something you have done yourself already.

 

[Cadillactaste]

I'm not bothered by one stating where they got their facts...maybe it's to hold more credential as to not just their belief but one who was trained well...is their source. Adair respects Boon...I respect several on here. I will be the first when out off the forum to direct ones here to the forum...and seek out posts by Vance on Mugo. If Mugo is being mentioned.

Though, I do after reading...see both sides of it to a degree, it still doesn't bother me any. But, I recall one thread stating something about not being able to create bonsai until you mimic the master or some wording that I am now butchering. I can see taking ones knowledge to help direct one. But, I am one of not wishing to mimic another's tree...but, have one that is unique in its own right. But...that's just me. I am not really here to decide what brings another joy. Nor turn this down a rabbit hole. But...I think it depends on how far one takes it.