JBP... "Where to begin?"

[tmjudd1]

Yep. Too soon to be removing low branches! Low branches are gold!! GOLD!!!

Let's see if I'm starting to understand things, correctly, regarding trunk development and taper?
"If the low branches are 'GOLD'... does this mean that the next level of branches are 'silver'?"...
... and the 3rd level could be considered copper, etc. all the way up the trunk?
Basically, should I allow the lower branches and the sacrificial apex to run wild, while not allowing the 'other branches' to run quite so wild?
Please pardon the crude drawing below. If I'm understanding things, correctly, is this the way to properly develop thickness 'and' taper in JBP?
The brown is obviously the trunk and limbs. The green is to represent flushes of needles.
I drew this with bar branches for simplicity, however. I just started to wonder. If 'one' bar branch side were allowed to grow wilder than its opposing branch, would that create natural movement in the trunk, or just create a fatter branch and a 'lump' where it meets the trunk?

 

[0soyoung]

Let's see if I'm starting to understand things, correctly, regarding trunk development and taper?
"If the low branches are 'GOLD'... does this mean that the next level of branches are 'silver'?"...
... and the 3rd level could be considered copper, etc. all the way up the trunk?
Basically, should I allow the lower branches and the sacrificial apex to run wild, while not allowing the 'other branches' to run quite so wild?
Please pardon the crude drawing below. If I'm understanding things, correctly, is this the way to properly develop thickness 'and' taper in JBP?
The brown is obviously the trunk and limbs. The green is to represent flushes of needles.
I drew this with bar branches for simplicity, however. I just started to wonder. If 'one' bar branch side were allowed to grow wilder than its opposing branch, would that create natural movement in the trunk, or just create a fatter branch and a 'lump' where it meets the trunk?

Actually, in bonsai, we're really not trying to make Christmas trees. Fundamentally, we are trying to create an interesting, tapering trunk. We make taper by recognizing that

1. natural taper occurs over distances far to long/large for the scale of trees we want to create.
2. cut a stem and it won't thicken much until the shoot from it is nearly as thick

There are some 'rules' that help us aim for what we are after.

• The height of the bonsai should be something around 6 times the trunk thickness above the nebari - a 12" tall tree ought to have a trunk about 2" thick
  • a larger ratio is conducive to feminine forms
    • literati in the extreme
  • a smaller ratio is conducive to masculine forms
    • sumo in the extreme

Typically the first branch should be about one-third of the way up the tree. The second branch another third of the height above that, and etc. Again, just a target. Heavy more masculine forms smaller ratios and etc. So, our 12" tree ought to have its first branch about 4 inches up, above the ground line. Lower if we're after a more powerful masculine image.

So, low branches are gold. Ask a specific question if there is any problem with thinking this though.

low branches are gold


There are, of course, alternatives. Many yamadori lack branches along the trunk - they all come from an apical whorl. Junipers are most notable for this. As a consequence, these bonsai tend to be a trunk with a lampshade or foliage helmet on top. These trunks also lack taper but have other interesting features (like a wandering trunk line).

 

[tmjudd1]

So, low branches are gold. Ask a specific question if there is any problem with thinking this though.

I understand what you are saying, however. What I am asking is how to properly develop a thick trunk with a desirable taper. Perhaps I could have worded things differently. I oft times get into a hurry, when typing, and don't always make myself clear. Anyway...
... This tree has a long, long ways to go... and I'm just getting started. You can pretty much see what direction I'm going with this one. I simply want to know how to properly go about fattening up the trunk while also developing a good taper before I start pruning things off and turning it into a subject for bonsai. The shape has somewhat been set, at least for now, and it will go into a much larger pot come spring. I'm trying to think 10 years ahead, with the trunk movement, and in such have not made any 'tight' bends, in the trunk, knowing that things will eventually get fat. I now need to know how to best fatten it up and create good taper while the years roll by!

 

[Adair M]

Most of the trunk thickening will come from the primary leader growing and thickening. Not so much from the branches.

So, rather than letting the lie branches run, we keep them suppressed, and forming sub-branches and short internodes.

So, you often see what almost looks like perfect little bonsai tree down low with a ridiculously tall apex sacrificial leader! Thus building trunk girth, and the start of a refined bonsai down low.

The key is sometimes the sacrificial leader needs to be chopped, and replaced with a thinner one from time to time. If you don’t, the trunk can just get fatter along it’s entire height. Of course, we want taper. So, let one sacrifice grow, then chop it, let another sacrifice grow, chop it, repeat...

 

[tmjudd1]

So, rather than letting the lie branches run, we keep them suppressed, and forming sub-branches and short internodes.

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a 'lie branch'? I googled it and found nothing! LOL
"It's tough being a rookie!"

 

[0soyoung]

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a 'lie branch'? I googled it and found nothing! LOL
"It's tough being a rookie!"

Just a typo = low, I think.

 

[River's Edge]

Most of the trunk thickening will come from the primary leader growing and thickening. Not so much from the branches.

So, rather than letting the lie branches run, we keep them suppressed, and forming sub-branches and short internodes.

So, you often see what almost looks like perfect little bonsai tree down low with a ridiculously tall apex sacrificial leader! Thus building trunk girth, and the start of a refined bonsai down low.

The key is sometimes the sacrificial leader needs to be chopped, and replaced with a thinner one from time to time. If you don’t, the trunk can just get fatter along it’s entire height. Of course, we want taper. So, let one sacrifice grow, then chop it, let another sacrifice grow, chop it, repeat...

Here is a picture to illustrate a sample of what Adair is describing.

 

[tmjudd1]

Here is a picture to illustrate a sample of what Adair is describing.

"Bingo!" "That's what I'm looking to accomplish!"

 

[Adair M]

Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a 'lie branch'? I googled it and found nothing! LOL
"It's tough being a rookie!"

Sorry, it should be “low” branches. Don’t let the low branches run. Keep them short.

That’s one reason that when we let a sacrifice branch (or sacrifice leader) run, we cut off its branches. So it won’t shade the lower branches and kill them.

A picture:



These are being grown in the ground, but it’s the same principle. The tall sacrifice branches will get cut off, and the low branches will become the bonsai.

 

[tmjudd1]

Just a typo = low, I think.

Not a problem. I'm just still so green that I still have a hard time with some of the abbreviated blurbage concerning bonsai and horticulture things.

 

[tmjudd1]

These are being grown in the ground, but it’s the same principle. The tall sacrifice branches will get cut off, and the low branches will become the bonsai.

Now 'THIS' is a good visual aid... something I can really understand and work with! "A picture is 'definitely' worth a thousand words!"
Many thanks!!!

 

[Adair M]

Sorry, it should be “low” branches. Don’t let the low branches run. Keep them short.

That’s one reason that when we let a sacrifice branch (or sacrifice leader) run, we cut off its branches. So it won’t shade the lower branches and kill them.

A picture:

View attachment 222322

These are being grown in the ground, but it’s the same principle. The tall sacrifice branches will get cut off, and the low branches will become the bonsai.

This is the kind of bonsai that can be made from trees grown like that growing bed:

 

[tmjudd1]

This is the kind of bonsai that can be made from trees grown like that growing bed:

Very nice! Thank you! How old is that tree?

 

[Adair M]

Very nice! Thank you! How old is that tree?

I’ve been working on it for 7 years. It literally came from that bed of pines with long sacrifices. That is Telperion farms. The ones in the picture, have about 6 years of sacrifice branch that’s visible. So, there’s 3 or 4 years in the “low” branches I guess. My guess is it was about 10 years old when I bought it from Telperion. Add my 7 years, and I’m thinking it’s 17 to 20 years old.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Very nice! Thank you! How old is that tree?

Hi tmjudd,
I also refer you to www.phutu.com. Lots of fantastic reading and pictures to describe the first 10 years.
Of course ground growing is preferred as the trunk thickens up much faster, but if this isn’t an option then large colanders or grow boxes work great. What I have learnt is the sacrifice trunks is the way to get girth while keeping the low branches short.
@Adair M, may be you could explain how the OP and myself how the whorls should be treated for the first 5 years. Eg. Keep 3, one for sacrifice, one for second sacrifice and one for first branch is my reading.
But how to you do this progression for the 2nd branch and so on?
Thank you to Adair and others for the explanations so far.
Charles

 

[Adair M]

Hi tmjudd,
I also refer you to www.phutu.com. Lots of fantastic reading and pictures to describe the first 10 years.
Of course ground growing is preferred as the trunk thickens up much faster, but if this isn’t an option then large colanders or grow boxes work great. What I have learnt is the sacrifice trunks is the way to get girth while keeping the low branches short.
@Adair M, may be you could explain how the OP and myself how the whorls should be treated for the first 5 years. Eg. Keep 3, one for sacrifice, one for second sacrifice and one for first branch is my reading.
But how to you do this progression for the 2nd branch and so on?
Thank you to Adair and others for the explanations so far.
Charles

Yeah, I’d keep 3. One for sacrifice (girth building). The second as a branch on the outside of the curve. And the third to be the continuation of the trunk line.

You can keep two branches at a node, as long as one is a back branch. You want to avoid having a bar branch configuration, if you can.

Up towards the apex, it’s ok to have more branches from a single node. Apexes are like little broom style trees.

May I add this thought: the “rules” would dictate the old “first branch, second branch, back branch” dogma. And that’s ok to use as a guide, as a way to guide your thinking. But trees are a bit more random than that, and you might find you have two branches that grow from a spot. So instead of having a single “number 2l branch, you might have 2 smaller branches, but when viewed from the front, they act as one nice branch. In that case, keep both! No reason to remove one just to follow the rules!

Most of the great Japanese trees tend to have more branches than we generally put in our designs. I always try to use as many as I can.

Another thought: when choosing branches for the design, try to avoid having heavy (thick) branches up in the apex. The heaviest branches should be the lower branches. They would be the oldest, therefore the thickest. When choosing between two branches, one thing to keep in mind is the girth and taper of the two. Choose the one that best fits its location on the tree as the one to keep.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Sorry, it should be “low” branches. Don’t let the low branches run. Keep them short.

That’s one reason that when we let a sacrifice branch (or sacrifice leader) run, we cut off its branches. So it won’t shade the lower branches and kill them.

A picture:

View attachment 222322

These are being grown in the ground, but it’s the same principle. The tall sacrifice branches will get cut off, and the low branches will become the bonsai.

Also roots in Grow bags unless incorrect in recognizing Telperion Farms grounds. In ground grows trunk faster than container.

 

[Adair M]

Also roots in Grow bags unless incorrect in recognizing Telperion Farms grounds. In ground grows trunk faster than container.

That’s Telperion Farms. I know they use grow bags. I don’t know if those pines are in them, or not.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Of course, you could just join the 6 year JBP growing contest... and learn every year in a step by step fashion

 

[0soyoung]

That’s Telperion Farms. I know they use grow bags. I don’t know if those pines are in them, or not.

In a podcast, Chris Kirk and Gary Wood indicated that they are.