JBP case study

[Poink88]

This tree is not mine (though I really like it). It is for sale at Evergreen Gardenworks http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/specimen.htm



I just want to learn from it (being conifer challenged).

IF I purchase this and decide to keep the small lower left branch and develop it as the new leader...
1) Which should I chop first, A or B?
2) When I do make the first chop?
3) When should the 2nd chop be done?
4) Should the tree be kept in its pot undisturbed during this process or should it be repotted?
5) What should/could be done to the new leader during this "reduction" process (which I assume may take 2 years or more).

Of course it all depends on how the tree responds but assume average growth.

BTW, I can see it also as a bigger tree and utilizing the existing top but lets assume not the case for this discussion since it is more straight forward and easier (not as much to learn from).

Thanks.

 

[nathanbs]

I would chop the trunk now during winter dormancy but just a tad higher than you marked. The branch chop I'm confused about. I would prune that branch out just beyond its first foliage to leave only two branches at the same time as trunk chop. You may get back budding you may not as it has to do with age of tree. If you do not you will need to graft on that branch close to the trunk but you will likely need that branch to become a little more vigorous for the graft to be successful. I would do one on each side of the branch very near trunk. I would also leave in container after chop and potential backbud or subsequent graft until backbuds have matured or grafts have fully taken then repot the next early spring. FWIW this is a little pricey for a 2.5" trunk. You can find JBP like this for much less because most people aren't willing to put in the work that you are

 

[Poink88]

Thanks.

I know it is pricey but as I mentioned...this is just for my education (and whoever is interested).

Branch A is to be eliminated (in my mind) and just develop everything from the small higher branch. I can see approach grafting at the right of the main trunk though and maybe use branch A as a whip.

 

[october]

I wouldn't chop either place. I would chop right above the small branch. Develop that small branch as the apex. Then, wire/coil up that long branch by putting some curves in it and bringing it down to develop a nice cascade. This tree has the makings to be an exhibition quality cascade. You could probably achieve this in about 5 years. This is all providing the tree can take the chop.

Here is a virt.

Rob

 

[Dav4]

The trunk on this one reminds me of one of my junipers. I think designing this one in a similar fashion is doable and would look great...skip the shari, though.

 

[Poink88]

Thanks Rob. Nice virt!

RE: the chop at the main trunk...I know. I just showed it higher since I learned it is easier to re-cut or carve deadwood than re-attach or add wood later.

I see where you are heading now and see it matches Nathans vision on branch A.

 

[nathanbs]

Yeah of course all wood above that small branch will eventually be removed but it's a process just like everything with bonsai. Always allow for sap recession and I feel it takes less of a toll on the tree. I could be wrong(probably am) but I figured the tree can somehow repurpose the sap that's remaining in the cut stub. I figured due to loss of hydraulic pressure or whatever it's called it will recede and go elsewhere as needed over the next couple of months. Perhaps this is what helps the back budding I have been so fortunate to experience on just about everyone of my JBP that I have chopped

 

[Poink88]

Yeah of course all wood above that small branch will eventually be removed but it's a process just like everything with bonsai. Always allow for sap recession and I feel it takes less of a toll on the tree. I could be wrong(probably am) but I figured the tree can somehow repurpose the sap that's remaining in the cut stub. I figured due to loss of hydraulic pressure or whatever it's called it will recede and go elsewhere as needed over the next couple of months. Perhaps this is what helps the back budding I have been so fortunate to experience on just about everyone of my JBP that I have chopped

I agree with this and feel/do the same thing...

 

[tmmason10]

I think it is more expensive because it is cutting-grown corkbark? It's pretty rare and probably fairly old so I imagine that is why the price is so high. I think Robs idea is correct but I like Nathan's idea about chopping it back in steps. We did this with JBP at the nursery where I think they cut a trunk off about half way for one season and then I imagine they finished the chop this year. Or it sold...

 

[nathanbs]

I wouldn't chop either place. I would chop right above the small branch. Develop that small branch as the apex. Then, wire/coil up that long branch by putting some curves in it and bringing it down to develop a nice cascade. This tree has the makings to be an exhibition quality cascade. You could probably achieve this in about 5 years. This is all providing the tree can take the chop.

Here is a virt.

Rob

I definitely like this idea. I'm a little biased towards cascades.

 

[october]

Like Tom said. At the nursery, they usually chop pines in stages. White pines for sure and now Tom has verified black as well. When the time comes to chop near what you need to be kept alive, make sure you leave about 1/2 inch or so of a stump. Cutting it closer, might kill the live section. Pines are different than other trees. You need to leave a stub, at first. In time that area dies back. Later on, the area can be cut and/or refined.

Also, you will need to use cut paste for this for 2 reasons. One is to protect the area and the other is the flowing sap. After the chop the tree will bleed. The sap will flow down the trunk and will not be able to be removed. It will be quite unsightly and trying to remove it will ruin the bark. Also, as Nathan mentioned about chopping it during dormancy. Doing this will minimize the bleeding. I would recommend late Fall/ early winter or late winter. Personally, I like to let my trees rest, especially in mid winter.

Rob

 

[yenling83]

Here's what I would do, not saying this is "correct" or the only way to go and you have several options with this pine. The first thing I would do is bare-root half in late winter or whenever is appropriate for repotting in your climate into akadama/pumice or akadama/pumice/lava. I would focus on getting the tree really healthy for 1-3 years depending on how it does before anything else. I know Brent uses bark in his mix, for the decandling process it's important not to use bark in your mix. Reason being-Fertilizing and when you feed and when you don't feed is important. After you de-candle you generally want to remove all food for approx 1 month, I believe the bark may leave food in the mix during this time. Also you don't want to feed nitrogen during winter which is another reason. Finally bark is better for preventing weeds, which don't like to grow in it.


After this I would approach or scion graft all or almost all new branches and a new apex. You could use any type of foliage you would like including the current foliage of this pine. I might use the small new shoot between the A and B potential cut lines as the new apex. Or you could graft a bit below B to create the new leader. I would likely graft new branches around the outside of the bends in the trunk to create the branches.


It's important that you do not cut at A or B too early. If you cut at A today, that branch would very likely just die back to the trunk. There has to be foliage to cut back to on a branch before the cut back line. You could either graft onto branch A before the cut line close to the trunk or let the branch grow strongly, decandle to push energy back into the interior of the branch to get back budding before cutting at the line.

If you cut back at B today this would be too drastic as well IMO. It's possible the back side could die back, but even if it does not it would probably be counter productive and delay the health and development of the tree. I'd graft this one and make a cool little tree.

 

[Neli]

I dont see much reason for graftig, unless you are into the natural style bonsai. Traditional Japanese style, in such a small tree can be developed from what is there already.

 

[bonsaibp]

I would chop the trunk now during winter dormancy but just a tad higher than you marked. The branch chop I'm confused about. I would prune that branch out just beyond its first foliage to leave only two branches at the same time as trunk chop. You may get back budding you may not as it has to do with age of tree. If you do not you will need to graft on that branch close to the trunk but you will likely need that branch to become a little more vigorous for the graft to be successful. I would do one on each side of the branch very near trunk. I would also leave in container after chop and potential backbud or subsequent graft until backbuds have matured or grafts have fully taken then repot the next early spring. FWIW this is a little pricey for a 2.5" trunk. You can find JBP like this for much less because most people aren't willing to put in the work that you are

If it were a regular Japanese Black Pine then yes it would be pricey. Below explains why the price is what it is. I'll leave to others to decide if they think it's too expensive or not.

Thus the corky bark extends all the into the nebari and the surface roots as well. They also exhibit the swollen bases common to cutting grown Japanese black pine. These trees are extremely rare, and there is nothing else like them in the world. Once they are sold, there won't be any more. I don't have the setup for growing pine cuttings any longer, and it is exceptionally difficult.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

This material isn't ideal, and requires some horticultural ability and time to make it a bonsai candidate. I see three options:

1. Build the entire tree from the low branch as Rob suggested.

2. Graft all new branches into the trunk exactly where they need to be. It is important to graft it's own shoots back into it because it's a corker and it should be uniform.

3. Build the tree from the top branches. Leave a longer trunk to show off the bark, and have the first branch cascade a bit to frame it.

In my experience with corkers, long, straight, branchless sections don't get better without significant intervention. Grafting is a low percentage shot, and big chops are frustrating because they remove so much of the character corkers are (in)famous for displaying.

I've looked at these last few corkers Brent has listed on his site and wondered what he saw. Surely walking past them and pruning them for the last 15 years he must have had some thoughts about their design phase. Maybe his plan was to grow a fat base, keep something down low for later and let someone else handle the rest...?

If you want to try a corker, PM me. I have that Ondae that I'd be willing to part with. It has similar issues, but not quite as exaggerated.

 

[Adair M]

Remember, this is a Cork Bark pine. They generally do not make good traditional bonsai. (There are exceptions, of course.) They are appreciated for the bark, not the foliage. They are weak, so they usually cannot tolerate the traditional JBP techniques. The heavy bark inhibits backbuding, so if you need more interior branches, grafting will be your best bet.

They spend their energy building bark, not growing height or roots. So, you have to really have good soil, and fertilize heavily. You can decandle every other year, once you get it strong.

Your design should focus on displaying the bark. Note that over time, the branches will appear to be "too heavy" as they will cork up as much as the trunk, so these trees will appear to be unbalanced. Another frustrating thing is the bark can fall off in big chunks! You can glue these back on. Boon has several that he keeps "wired" with very fine wire, just on to hold the bark on so that rain and wind don't knock off the bark. These wires are not spiral wrapped like traditional wire, they're just simply looped around the trunk, and twisted together. Again, the purpose is to hold the bark on. They would be removed when showing, then replaced after the show.

Cork barks are really not used much for bonsai in Japan because of the difficulties I just described. Regular JBP are much better suited for bonsai. Cork barks are used to provide variety in a collection, not as the centerpiece.

To anyone new to JBP, my advice is to avoid the cork bark trees until you have mastered JBP, and are ready for "something different".

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Remember, this is a Cork Bark pine. They generally do not make good traditional bonsai. (There are exceptions, of course.) They are appreciated for the bark, not the foliage. They are weak, so they usually cannot tolerate the traditional JBP techniques.

This may be one of those exceptions. The "mi nishiki" cultivar is more of the tortoise shell bark, not a winged bark. My "Hachi gen" has similar tortoise shell bark and is about as vigorous as my other JBP. Although I agree with everything you have posted...they're a novelty and it seems that one is enough...ok maybe 2...or 3.

 

[nathanbs]

If it were a regular Japanese Black Pine then yes it would be pricey. Below explains why the price is what it is. I'll leave to others to decide if they think it's too expensive or not.

Thus the corky bark extends all the into the nebari and the surface roots as well. They also exhibit the swollen bases common to cutting grown Japanese black pine. These trees are extremely rare, and there is nothing else like them in the world. Once they are sold, there won't be any more. I don't have the setup for growing pine cuttings any longer, and it is exceptionally difficult.

Yeah I totally missed that. Still super pricey for what it is

 

[iant]

pricey?
The correct price for an item is the price for which it sells. Brent has unique stock. There are not many vendors that have the inventory up and photographed and well described. His Hachi Gen that he had listed the year prior to the Nishikis sold fairly fast and the 20 or so that were there when I looked are all gone now. So I think the pricing is about right.
Ian
p.s. I'm looking forward to finishing the 1st transition this winter on the HG that I bought. It took me 2 years to get to know them and have them thrive after a report and now they're ready for the next step. I'll post em later this winter once I start to work on them.

 

[pwk5017]

pricey?
The correct price for an item is the price for which it sells. Brent has unique stock. There are not many vendors that have the inventory up and photographed and well described. His Hachi Gen that he had listed the year prior to the Nishikis sold fairly fast and the 20 or so that were there when I looked are all gone now. So I think the pricing is about right.
Ian
p.s. I'm looking forward to finishing the 1st transition this winter on the HG that I bought. It took me 2 years to get to know them and have them thrive after a report and now they're ready for the next step. I'll post em later this winter once I start to work on them.

I would agree with this. If you spent 4 years on this tree to build the basic structure and have it in an appropriate container, you would easily sell it for $800-900. So you spend four years on it and increase its value by 30-50%, but most would consider $600 to be overpriced when Brent has worked on it for 16 years. I think there is a pretty big disconnect in people's mind as far as assigning a value to stock versus a value to finished or almost finished trees. Don't undervalue rough stock, because it is not easy to produce and most of the time you are looking at a decade or more of work.

That being said, I would rather spend $600 on a nice beefy regular jbp. In fact, I just did a week ago. Maybe one day I will want one of these strange varieties, but the corkers never tickled my fancy. Everything aside, the first 3-4" trunk line of Brent's pine is sexy.