Japanese Black Pine Training - opinions - youtube

[Solange]

An axillary or fascicle bud could become a "pseudo" terminal and/or apical bud, but isn't by default. Most of us funk with that action all the time when get the choppers out. That is an unusual case made common in our particular practice. That silly formality aside - Adair has helpfully pointed out that a lot depends on the health of the plant and its geographic growing conditions, and that peoples practices vary accordingly. That may be the best insight in this thread. I can feel Anthony's pain though, as I don't think he can just run down the road to his local JPB expert!

 

[Adair M]

Here is a handout from one of my Intensives:



Fig1 shows how to do it correctly.

Fig2-4 are incorrect.

Fig5 illustrates the technique Oso was asking about, cutting back on the candle, but not completely removing it.

Fig6 shows what happens. You get needle buds at the cut, and you may get adventitious (resting) buds at the base of the candle. But you will still have the long neck on the original candle, and long needles.

 

[Adair M]

Here is a handout describing the 10 day decandling process:



With this method, all candles are cut very short.

The third paragraph describes a method to cut all candles short in one day, but pull more needles from the strong areas.

 

[Adair M]

This is the method I tend to use: the One day method:



This method leaves a bit of stem on after the cut. The strong areas, leave more stem. Weak areas no stem.

The stem retains auxin for a while. So the longer the stem, the more auxin is retained. Remember, auxin suppresses the dormant buds. So for a while, the strong areas with the longer stems will continue to be suppressed. The weak areas have no stem, their dormant buds will get activated sooner. But they're weaker, so they'll be less vigorous. The goal is by the end of the growing season they'll all have equal strength.

In the fall, I go thru and remove the long stems.

 

[MichaelS]

In figure 6 above, they're all adventitious buds. You are doing it exactly the same as everyone else (section 2) apart from leaving some of the neck to retard re-growth in sections 4 and 3. The buds still come from the same place.

 

[Anthony]

@Solange,

thanks for the sympathy, but no need, down here we love to experiment.
Bonsai for us is not about showing specimens, but stimulating ideas, as I mentioned a few times before.
We use the original idea of the Chinese Scholars.

It cancels out the situation of growing for x years to a Design, and then the tree continues on, killing the Design.

So the tree has a generalised shape and that's okay.

If there was an Exhibition that paid big $$$, maybe we might try., though I doubt it. K, my brother-in-law is
a Fine Artist, a finished painting is what he is about. I do my experiments.
Bonsai is a discipline --------- 990+ pounds of water moved daily with a plastic watering can and 5 miles of
walking up and down hill ------- great exercise.

So a set of finished Bonsai, and a chance of killing them because they are so finished --------- not very appealing.
Good Xmas
Anthony

 

[Adair M]

In figure 6 above, they're all adventitious buds. You are doing it exactly the same as everyone else (section 2) apart from leaving some of the neck to retard re-growth in sections 4 and 3. The buds still come from the same place.

I don't use the buds that lie in between the needles. The ones I use are the dormant (resting) buds that are at the base of the primary candle that is removed.

I don't do Fig5 and Fig6. That is an illustration of what happens if you cut too high.

 

[Vance Wood]

Here is a handout from one of my Intensives:

View attachment 127424

Fig1 shows how to do it correctly.

Fig2-4 are incorrect.

Fig5 illustrates the technique Oso was asking about, cutting back on the candle, but not completely removing it.

Fig6 shows what happens. You get needle buds at the cut, and you may get adventitious (resting) buds at the base of the candle. But you will still have the long neck on the original candle, and long needles.

This is what I do on Mugos as well. The difference here is the Mugo is a single flush two needle Pine and most of the time will not be encouraged to do anything more than pop a whole bunch of buds below the cut, as long as you leave that little bit of the new candle. It is not likely a Mugo will generate another generation of new growth the same season after having the current growth cut as described.

 

[Adair M]

This is what I do on Mugos as well. The difference here is the Mugo is a single flush two needle Pine and most of the time will not be encouraged to do anything more than pop a whole bunch of buds below the cut, as long as you leave that little bit of the new candle. It is not likely a Mugo will generate another generation of new growth the same season after having the current growth cut as described.

So, Vance, the Mugo is living off one year old needles for the rest of the year? While it makes buds for next spring?

So, you can't do that every year. Else you would never have new needles. So, you use this as a technique to induce backbudding for ramification?

 

[Vance Wood]

So, Vance, the Mugo is living off one year old needles for the rest of the year? While it makes buds for next spring?

So, you can't do that every year. Else you would never have new needles. So, you use this as a technique to induce backbudding for ramification?

The difference with the Mugo is you don't eliminate all of the old needles. This process is only done two years in a row and not necessarily all over the tree.

 

[MichaelS]

="Adair M, post: 413023, member: 13405"]I don't use the buds that lie in between the needles. The ones I use are the dormant (resting) buds that are at the base of the primary candle that is removed.

So does the bloke in the video

 

[Adair M]

So does the bloke in the video

No, if you listen carefully, he says "I'm leaving these needles because that's where the new buds will come. From between the old needles."

Also, he talks about the sap rising when he cuts candles. And he says that if you cut all of them on one day "you're at risk of losing your lower branches".

That's total BS.

I cut all my candles in one sitting. I've never lost a lower branch because of it.

 

[Adair M]

Here's a tree I decandled all in one day in early June.

Before decandling:



After decandling:



I had also wired out the two bottom branches.

Here is a closeup of the bottom left branch:



Look at the stubs I left when I decandled. This was intentional. In the video, it appears the guy is trying to cut off as close to last year's needles as possible. I don't. I leave a tiny bit of stub on the weak shoots, and more stub on the stronger shoots. This branch, being a low branch, is relatively weak, so the stubs I left were pretty short. Up near the apex, I left considerably longer stubs. 1/2 inch or possibly even longer.

When I was back in California in November, I finished wiring the tree out. I also pulled needles, and thinned buds where I got more than two new shoots when they grew back after decandling. So pretty much all the needles you see on the above two pictures were pulled!

As I was going thru the tree pulling needles, I removed any stubs I left on when decandling. So, I had tweezers in one hand, and scissors in the other!

So, that's another departure I have with the video. He does his needle pulling at decandling time, whereas I pull needles in the fall.

Here it is after the fall work:

 

[MichaelS]

"Adair M, post: 413182, member: 13405"]No, if you listen carefully, he says "I'm leaving these needles because that's where the new buds will come. From between the old needles."

Just one more time.......

1/ The buds on your tree and the buds on his tree come from exactly the same place. 2/ You must leave some needles around the cut to keep the branch alive and assist with new bud growth. (keep the sap flowing) 3/ Yes the buds at (not on) the base of the removed shoot are the strongest and will be the first to move ON BOTH TREES. (When he says ''from between the needles'', that's what he means). So he is wrong in not distinguishing that detail. And you are wrong in saying you remove adventitious buds if you cut the shoot like he does.
4/ Whether you remove the entire shoot or leave a stub, you are NOT removing adventitious buds at the base AND the new buds emerge from THE SAME PLACE in both cases.

Now, does a needle fascicle with a bud also have a bud at it's base? I don't know. I have never bothered to look that close (I will next time) but I just thinned out a Scots pine yesterday. Some tips had 10!! buds emerge from the same area. Many shoots had a bud from every pair of needles on it. Every single bud came from between the needles (from the centre of the needle pair) Some strong, some weak, some very small.

PS, Your tree is worked on masterfully! and Happy New Year!

 

[Adair M]

Just one more time.......

1/ The buds on your tree and the buds on his tree come from exactly the same place. 2/ You must leave some needles around the cut to keep the branch alive and assist with new bud growth. (keep the sap flowing) 3/ Yes the buds at (not on) the base of the removed shoot are the strongest and will be the first to move ON BOTH TREES. (When he says ''from between the needles'', that's what he means). So he is wrong in not distinguishing that detail. And you are wrong in saying you remove adventitious buds if you cut the shoot like he does.
4/ Whether you remove the entire shoot or leave a stub, you are NOT removing adventitious buds at the base AND the new buds emerge from THE SAME PLACE in both cases.

Now, does a needle fascicle with a bud also have a bud at it's base? I don't know. I have never bothered to look that close (I will next time) but I just thinned out a Scots pine yesterday. Some tips had 10!! buds emerge from the same area. Many shoots had a bud from every pair of needles on it. Every single bud came from between the needles (from the centre of the needle pair) Some strong, some weak, some very small.

PS, Your tree is worked on masterfully! and Happy New Year!

I just watched it again. I'm pretty sure he means he expects new buds to emerge from in between the two needles of each fasticle.

One of my Black Pines last year I decandled, and it's really strong, so I cut back farther into the previous year's needles. Here's what happened:



The grey stem was 2015's growth. I cut the stem into the needles right where you see that cluster of new shoots about an inch to the right of my finger. All those came from buds that popped from between the two needles of a fasticle. Up towards the tip, they really grew strong. But even down below, you can see more "needle buds" and shoots coming from in between old needles. All of that mess are needle buds that popped this summer.

Now, if I didn't know better, I would assume those strong shoots coming off the tip were "secondary resting buds". But in actuality, they came from the buds between two needles.

Scots pines don't have the same growth patterns as JBP. So, you can't compare what you see on a Scots to a JBP.

On the twig where there were two candles... what happened there is there was a primary and one of the "resting" buds that both grew. Right at the base of the primary candle, there is a ring of buds, resting. If something happens to the primary bud, they can grow to take its place. If you make a "one cut" and remove both in one cluster, then you have removed enough tissue to have removed the remaining "resting" buds. At that point, you're depending on the buds lying in between the needles of the last year's growth. Like my picture shows.

But "needle buds" are notariously unreliable. Maybe this is why he states that if you cut off all the candles in one go, you're at risk of losing the lower branches. Because he's removed all the "resting" buds! So then the tree has to use needle buds to survive. They're unreliable. Maybe the tree doesn't have enough strength to push needle buds all over. So, it concentrates on the top.

That's not an issue if you make sure to keep the "resting" buds. (The ones I have been calling "adventitious").

Happy New Year to you, too! They're shooting off fireworks in the neighborhood!