Japanese Black Pine Training - opinions - youtube

[Brian Van Fleet]

Brian,

What you are proposing is yet another list of terms. Your terms are just as arbitrary as mine, and the scientific terms Solange used are, too.

I use the terms I use because those are the terms Boon uses. Everyone who studies with him uses his terms, and we all understand each other. Mind you, English is not Boon's native language, so we have all had to learn "Boon speak"! Lol!

But again, the words are not the goal of this discussion. It's the concept of where to cut, and what the effect is.

Mike Frary and I had a discussion about the word "decandling", as he insisted that what was being cut was not a candle, but rather a shoot. I conceded that he was technically correct, but most people in bonsai call the process "decandling" or "candle cutting".

Boon was taught JBP technique by the grandson of the man who discovered "decandling". And the terms he uses convey what needs to be done to get good effects. Could other terms be used instead? Certainly. I will use the terms I am most comfortable using, I'm afraid that if I try to deviate depending upon my audience, I may indeed mis-speak.

I simply provided the correct, scientific terms; which are anything but arbitrary. I have no interest in "boon speak".

 

[Adair M]

Right, this makes sense to me. Think of a strong JBP in the ground or a grow pot/box that has not received any candle cutting, balancing, root pruning, etc. It's going to produce numerous buds and shoots at each growing tip - a main dominant terminal bud and 4-6 (or more?) secondary buds that grow into shoots, producing the "whorl" growth pattern. But in our bonsai, we have restricted the growth through various means, so typically our new growth (especially if it was the result of candle cutting last season) produces a terminal bud and maybe 1 or 2 other buds at each shoot. But, I would assume (dangerous, perhaps) that there are other latent buds in the same area. When you cut off the extending candles in the summer, it is those buds that are activated producing the smaller growth we desire, clustered at the end of the previous seasons shoot.

The video in question is not of sufficient quality to really see what he is cutting (at least on my monitor). It looks like his "pressing" technique is just a way to get as close to the base of the current shoot as possible - looks like he is pressing the scissors against the previous years needles. If so, he is most likely not cutting off the area of buds (that Adair calls adventitious). However, in those cases where he is cutting off 2 or more shoots at once, he is removing part of the previous years shoot - the part where the buds we want are located. In that case, any new growth would have to come from "needle buds" or presumably from older terminal buds that are further back along the branch, regardless of what they are called.

At least, that's how it appears to me!

Chris

Coh, his "pressing" is vague. He may indeed be removing some of the current year bud, maybe not.

All I know is when I remove spring candles, I am careful to remove only the stem, leaving the base intact to preserve the "resting" buds.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Here is what I discovered, practiced, and shared about timing of JBP candle-cutting. It's simple and effective and yours for the taking: find your area's first frost date, and count backwards 100 days. That is when you candle-cut your JBP. Want longer needles, cut a week or two earlier. Want shorter needles, cut a week or two later.

 

[Adair M]

I simply provided the correct, scientific terms; which are anything but arbitrary. I have no interest in "boon speak".

I agree, your terminology is much easier to understand than the technical terms that Solange used.

I am not trying to convert anyone to Boon speak.

Now that we have all discussed the semantics...

Is there anything left to discuss about the removal of the spring growth?

 

[Adair M]

Here is what I discovered, practiced, and shared about timing of JBP candle-cutting. It's simple and effective and yours for the taking: find your area's first frost date, and count backwards 100 days. That is when you candle-cut your JBP. Want longer needles, cut a week or two earlier. Want shorter needles, cut a week or two later.

That works great for those who get frost. Anthony, who started this thread doesnt get any. So that method won't work for him.

 

[Anthony]

Well Brian,

looks like we are in October, because I would like to believe after Christmas is our "Frost" date, say January.
Here goes test 1000 and 2 ..................
Thank you.
Merry New Years
Anthony

* Hee hee we can try Sifu, we can try. Remember for us after or around Christmas nothing grows
until February mid to end.

 

[coh]

Coh, his "pressing" is vague. He may indeed be removing some of the current year bud, maybe not.

All I know is when I remove spring candles, I am careful to remove only the stem, leaving the base intact to preserve the "resting" buds.

Oh, I agree it is vague! And I haven't been decandling pines long enough to really have all this stuff internalized yet, so I'll have to pay more attention next time I do it.

Regarding terminology...I don't know much about epicormic buds, or periderms, or orthotropic leaders. Heck, I have trouble remembering whether it is xylem or phloem that transports water upward! Does knowing that stuff really have much of an impact on my ability to grow and style bonsai? I'm not into this to learn all the technical nomenclature related to plant growth. Once you get a pine and do some cutting, you'll quickly see and learn the differences between the buds you get at the terminals and "needle" buds, and you'll realize it doesn't really matter all that much whether Adair or Boon incorrectly use the term "adventitious".

Now egocentric buds, that's another matter!

 

[0soyoung]

Is there anything left to discuss about the removal of the spring growth?

Maybe answer my question:

is partial shoot pruning a means of (or technique for) reducing internode length?

It seems to me that the answer could be of some importance to bonsai development and would maybe reflect on the video.

And maybe also @Adair M can explain what 'course' means when describing a needle shoot on p. thunbergii (e.g., long, long necked, thick/fat).

 

[Solange]

It's a strange and curious thing about those egocentric buds, they like to define their own terminology, and stubbornly resist learning anything new about their own growth potential.

 

[Adair M]

Maybe answer my question:

It seems to me that the answer could be of some importance to bonsai development and would maybe reflect on the video.

And maybe also @Adair M can explain what 'course' means when describing a needle shoot on p. thunbergii (e.g., long, long necked, thick/fat).

Oso,

It can be a method for reducing internode length. But one I would only use in the early phases of development, not when the tree has reached the Refinement stage.

Partial shoot pruning (aka "candle breaking") is best performed when the candles have stopped lengthening, and are starting to form needles, but the needles have not broken out into the open. At this point, the candle will be thin in the barren "neck" portion between where the candle emerged from the old growth to the area where the first needles are on the candle. The area where the needles will emerge will be thicker. The candle/shoot looks somewhat like a corn dog on a stick.

The candle is somewhat "snappy", in that it's easy to break off a section. Bend it and it breaks like a carrot. You can shorten the candle but make sure you leave some of the fatter portion. That's where the new needles are. Breaking at this stage will allow the shoot to develop a new terminal bud for the following year.

This method shortens the candle and thus the internodes.

However...

The needles will be full size since they still will have all summer to grow long.

Usually, there is one primary candle produced in the spring at each terminal tip. By breaking it short, the branch won't extend as long, but it still lengthens without making any additional branches.

And, the "neck" will still be there. That area between the previous year's needles and the new needles has no buds. If you have a long neck, it makes for long internodes.

When the candle/shoot is completely removed, the new candles that emerge typically have very little if any neck. Usually, more than one candle will grow after a decandling. Two, three or even more new candles will grow where before there was only one. These new candles have virtually no neck, will not grow as long as the primary candle was and will be thinner. The needles will be tightly bunched together. These characteristics are all very desirable. If there are too many new candles produced at a terminal, they should be reduced to two.

The question was asked about what makes "needle buds" coarse. It has been my experience that needle buds grow differently than the "resting terminal" buds. When they grow out, they almost always produce a cotelon between each pair of needles. And the length of stem produced between pairs of needles is longer than the tightly bunched needles produced by the summer terminal candles. After the first year, their new candles become normal.

So, if you're not in the Refinement stage, you can induce needle buds. After a couple years you wouldn't know the difference. But for refined trees they're undesirable.

 

[Adair M]

It's a strange and curious thing about those egocentric buds, they like to define their own terminology, and stubbornly resist learning anything new about their own growth potential.

Actually, I had to learn a great deal of new terminology and new practices and techniques when I started studying with Boon. I had a lot of old bad habits I had to change.

Some of the things I learned to do differently:

Unwire;
Wire;
Use tweezers instead of hands
When using hands, turn palms up
New soils
New fertilizers
Wire deciduous in summer, not winter
Don't pinch, cut back instead
Half bare root conifers
Ebihara technique deciduous
Graft
Guy wire
Secure trees in pots

Those are just some of the things that come to mind immediately. I'm sure there's more!

 

[coh]

The question was asked about what makes "needle buds" coarse. It has been my experience that needle buds grow differently than the "resting terminal" buds. When they grow out, they almost always produce a cotelon between each pair of needles. And the length of stem produced between pairs of needles is longer than the tightly bunched needles produced by the summer terminal candles. After the first year, their new candles become normal.

So, if you're not in the Refinement stage, you can induce needle buds. After a couple years you wouldn't know the difference. But for refined trees they're undesirable.

Adair, follow-up question on needle buds. I have limited experience with them on JBP, a bit more on Scots Pine. From what I've read and seen on the Scots pine, needle buds are typically quite weak the first year. So while they may produce a bit of a stem or neck that is bare of needles, it's usually quite short. In following years, as you note, the growth becomes more "normal".

Does this match your experience?

It's a strange and curious thing about those egocentric buds, they like to define their own terminology, and stubbornly resist learning anything new about their own growth potential.

That is certainly one way to interpret "egocentric buds"...

 

[Adair M]

Adair, follow-up question on needle buds. I have limited experience with them on JBP, a bit more on Scots Pine. From what I've read and seen on the Scots pine, needle buds are typically quite weak the first year. So while they may produce a bit of a stem or neck that is bare of needles, it's usually quite short. In following years, as you note, the growth becomes more "normal".

Does this match your experience?


That is certainly one way to interpret "egocentric buds"...

Yes, I would say so. Needle buds are very weak and fragile that first year. I would not pull either of the needles where a needle bud has developed. If you want to remove the needles, cut them off short with scissors.

Oh, by the way... JBP are normally two needled. Occasionally, they produce a three needle bunch. There is guaranteed to be a strong needle bud there!

 

[Solange]

Actually, I had to learn a great deal of new terminology and new practices and techniques when I started studying with Boon. I had a lot of old bad habits I had to change.

Some of the things I learned to do differently:

Unwire;
Wire;
Use tweezers instead of hands
When using hands, turn palms up
New soils
New fertilizers
Wire deciduous in summer, not winter
Don't pinch, cut back instead
Half bare root conifers
Ebihara technique deciduous
Graft
Guy wire
Secure trees in pots

Those are just some of the things that come to mind immediately. I'm sure there's more!

Not everything is about you.

 

[Adair M]

Not everything is about you.

Good to know!

@Anthony

Jason Chen is an apprentice to David Nguy.

 

[Anthony]

http://www.bonsaijidai.com/welcome.html

 

[MichaelS]

When you cut a new shoot off, the adventitious buds spring from the previous seasons wood. (There are no buds on the neck or the base of the new shoot. The adventitious buds reside among the needles or where there WERE needles) I don't get what's so hard to understand.

 

[0soyoung]

When you cut a new shoot off, the adventitious buds spring from the previous seasons wood. (There are no buds on the neck or the base of the new shoot. The adventitious buds reside among the needles or where there WERE needles) I don't get what's so hard to understand.

Are you saying that fascicular buds (at the bases of a needle fascicle/group) are the same as terminal buds (buds at the tip of a stem)?

 

[MichaelS]

Are you saying that fascicular buds (at the bases of a needle fascicle/group) are the same as terminal buds (buds at the tip of a stem)?

No.



Whether they spring from between needles or on bare wood after you cut, they are adventitious.

 

[MichaelS]

Adair M,

Adventitious buds are dormant buds residing at the base of every candle. Remove the candle, and the adventitious buds will be stimulated to grow. It appears to me that he cuts so low, he removes them, too. Then he's relying on needle buds which are far less strong.

I re-read your first post Adair. I think this is where the confusion is:
There are buds AT the base of the ''candle'' but not ON the base of the candle itself. The buds are on the previous growth. You don't cut off any adventitious buds by removing the entire ''candle''

Here's my world-standard sketch