Japanese Black Pine Training - opinions - youtube
- Thread starter Anthony
- Start date
It would have been helpful if he had said he was doing the 10 day technique at the beginning.
His "one cut" technique is flawed. Doing it that way will remove all the adventitious buds.
He said earlier that he expects to get new branches from between the needles he leaves on. That may be true for him because it looks like he cuts too low. He may be cutting off all the adventitious buds!
Adventitious buds are dormant buds residing at the base of every candle. Remove the candle, and the adventitious buds will be stimulated to grow. It appears to me that he cuts so low, he removes them, too. Then he's relying on needle buds which are far less strong.
He did mention to leave some really weak buds "where there is no gap". I would leave any weak interior buds. He cut some that I would probably would have left on.
Personally, I usually do the "all in one day" technique, which leaves varying amount of stem depending on how strong the shoot is that I'm removing. Both methods work.
I thought it was a good introduction to new shoot removal. I don't like the use of the word candle here. Candles are candles and mature shoots are mature shoots. This can be confusing to beginners.
Adair, I disagree that he removed any adventitious buds by removing the shoots at the base. How is that possible when you are only removing the currant growth which has no buds at it's base? The buds come from the previous season's growth which is not touched. If you're referring to removing multiple shoots all emerging from one spot, there may be a little 1 year old wood removed but cutting them off individually will lead to too many buds forming anyway so I think it's ok to do it this way.
Adair, I disagree that he removed any adventitious buds by removing the shoots at the base. How is that possible when you are only removing the currant growth which has no buds at it's base? The buds come from the previous season's growth which is not touched. If you're referring to removing multiple shoots all emerging from one spot, there may be a little 1 year old wood removed but cutting them off individually will lead to too many buds forming anyway so I think it's ok to do it this way.
namnhi
Masterpiece
I've watched this video before and I think he showing how to decandle pine pretty much the same as others. Decandle pine is no rocket science as there are only two ways of doing it.... All in one go or ten days apart. Cutting shoot is pretty much the same... Cut them of at the base of the current year growth. You leave a little more stub on the strong shoot if you do all in one go. That's it.
I would like to see a follow up photo of the tree several weeks later. He mentioned several times that he gets new buds (shoots) from between the needles that he leaves behind. If that's true, then it's because he's removed the adventitious buds.
On places where multiple shoots are extending, what is happening is that the primary bud is growing, and that area is so strong adventitious buds are growing, too. By going back and cutting them off in "one cut" where they are connected, that tissue that connects the two shoots is the area where the adventitious buds are. So, he's removing the adventitious buds.
Actually, you can combine the two.
Typically, with the 10 day method, you cut the candles off at the base. However, you can also choose to leave a bit of stub to suppress the stronger areas.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
And/or he cut into prior year's growth vs. at the axil, where current year's candles began; which may be what you meant by "removed the adventitious buds".
I'd say the video is directionally correct, but pretty rough...in many ways.
abqjoe
Chumono
I just went ahead a paid for Boons JBP videos and have found them to be very insightful
Yes. He says he cuts right at the base, and he says he "pushes a little more", which if he means that he actually removes a little more, then yes he is cutting into last year's wood. Which would remove the adventitious buds.
Smoke
Ignore-Amus
Based on the tree in the video I would need to see a pretty nice yard full of well manicured pine bonsai to jump in and do exactly what he shows. Based on the tree used there are a dozen or more folks here that could make a video like that.
With respect, you need to acquaint yourself with exactly what adventitious buds are Adair. The new buds (shoots) he gets ARE adventitious.
Michael, I've watched it twice. He says he gets new shoots from in between the pairs of needles that he leaves on. That means he gets "needle" buds (shoots).
Adventitious buds are dormant buds that lay at the base of every candle. They are not at the base of a pair of needles. They are normally suppressed from developing by the auxin produced by the primary candle (shoot). If the candle (shoot) is removed, the auxin is removed. The adventitious buds are no longer suppressed, and they can grow. They're stronger than needle buds. If the adventitious buds are destroyed, then needle buds may develop. I say "may" because they're not as strong as adventitious buds, and they might not develop at all.
Not all pines have adventitious buds. JBP, JRP, Virginia Pine are the species that I know that do. That's why decandling works for them.
Solange
Shohin
Michael is correct. Your definition of adventitious is a bit narrow Adair. If the bud is coming from the needle axil the bud is adventitious. Periderm formation usually cuts off the meristem, which is why we don't often get coppice growth from conifers. Some conifers have persistent detached meristems and will allow this. If we chop off the orthotropic leader we can usually induce an adventitious bud from the axil of relatively new growth, which is what we are talking about here. Heck, sometimes you get a surprise, I've even seen epicormic growth from chopped black pine trunks! Is your way better Adair? It may be, but I'm guessing to determine that it would be proper to contact the person in the video and ask them directly what they meant or were trying to convey.
abqjoe
Chumono
ad·ven·ti·tious
ˌadvenˈtiSHəs/
adjective
ˌadvenˈtiSHəs/
adjective
- happening or carried on according to chance rather than design or inherent nature.
"my adventures were always adventitious, always thrust on me"
synonyms: unplanned, unpremeditated, accidental, chance, fortuitous, serendipitous, coincidental, casual, random
"he felt that the conversation was not entirely adventitious"- coming from outside; not native.
"the adventitious population"
synonyms: unplanned, unpremeditated, accidental, chance, fortuitous, serendipitous, coincidental, casual, random
"he felt that the conversation was not entirely adventitious" - BIOLOGY
formed accidentally or in an unusual anatomical position.
"propagation of sour cherries by adventitious shoots"
- coming from outside; not native.
dirk hoorelbeke
Omono
From what i know i think he cuts back to far. For the strong branches it will be good and for the weak... I don't know. Normally you rely on the buds at the base of the shoot. He does cut them away. He might have more backbudding but i don't believe it will have good results on a pine that is in a more finished state.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
One way to Know Dirk -------------- test on a few pines.
Thanks to All.
Anthony
Thanks to All.
Anthony
You may be correct - in the literal scientific sense. I don't know. Frankly, I don't know what half the words you used actually mean! (That's due to my ignorance of the proper biological terms.)
My definitions of "adventitious" vs "needle" buds are commonly used by us non-scientists to describe the different buds that JBP have.
Just as the word "decandling" is perhaps a misnomer, the word "adventitious" may be incorrect scientifically, but it is the way laymen bonsai people describe the buds that lay at the base of candles on JBP. And differentiate from those that lie between pairs of needles.
I don't know who coined the terms "adventitious", "needle buds" or "decandling". No matter. The important thing is to convey the concept.
I have managed to develop JBP ramification and short foliage successfully for many years without knowing the terms "meristem, orthrotopic, coppice, periderm", etc.
When I describe the process to my students, I try to convey the concept. In as simple of terms as possible. The scientific terms may be accurate, but it's just "too much information" for the non-scientist.
Here is evidence that the non-scientist can refine JBP bonsai with complete ignorance of the proper scientific terms:
Joe,
Bonsai has its own set of terminology. The origins of these terms are due to efforts to translate from Japanese to English by persons who may or may not have knowledge of bonsai.
Anthony
Imperial Masterpiece
Hmm, buds that spontaneously erupt on branches or buds that pass through the centres of needles ?
So you shorten the branch and leave a few needles to allow for buds.
And the branch system gets longer.
Or back buds appear and you can somewhat control your branch lengthening. No need for grafts.
Or you do both and the sunlight aids in the back budding.
BUT the extended candles that became branches with functioning needles feeds the tree/branch and
makes a healthier tree.
Additionally, it takes much more elongation of the branch with candles gone to needles to fatten the branch.
So you end up with health and no real branch fattening, retaining one's elegant design.
Alas it has to grown tested.
UNLESS someone has done it already ----------- anyone, anyone ?
Good Year
Anthony
* Write to the Author of the Video ----------- most excellent idea .
So you shorten the branch and leave a few needles to allow for buds.
And the branch system gets longer.
Or back buds appear and you can somewhat control your branch lengthening. No need for grafts.
Or you do both and the sunlight aids in the back budding.
BUT the extended candles that became branches with functioning needles feeds the tree/branch and
makes a healthier tree.
Additionally, it takes much more elongation of the branch with candles gone to needles to fatten the branch.
So you end up with health and no real branch fattening, retaining one's elegant design.
Alas it has to grown tested.
UNLESS someone has done it already ----------- anyone, anyone ?
Good Year
Anthony
* Write to the Author of the Video ----------- most excellent idea .
Anthony,
Growing and Refining are two different Phases of Development of JBP. Once you start decandling, little thickening of the trunk and branches will occur. That's because the tree will have to expend so much of its energy to replace to removed foliage.
In your climate, with the lack of a winter season, the annual growth cycle of JBP is different. As I have told you before, you would do best by contacting those in Hawaii and inquire about their training techniques.
The author of this particular video appears to have a limited knowledge of JBP care. He has a clue, but as I mentioned, he has some misunderstandings as well. And the tree he was using as demonstration material had needlecast, long internodes, very little interior foliage and branching. If that is what he considers a good JBP, I would recommend you find another mentor.
