Japanese Black Pine Escape Branch Management Help Please.

[Nickuk74]

Good morning,
I'm in the UK and have 2 Japanese Black Pines which are about 5 years old. They both have long escape branches to develop the trunks which are not yet at the desired size. The escape branches are about 5 and 6 feet respectively. They are getting hard to manage in the wind so I was wondering about chopping them and starting new escape branches. Is this a good idea and if so, when is the best time to do it? I'm in the UK.
Thanks,
Nick

 

[Dutch bonsai chef]

Pictures would be helpful, from my understanding however it would be counterproductive to cut off sacrifices too early because you’d lose a lot of momentum. If you have space for it a good idea would be to secure them to a fence with wire or something.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Removing all the needles except for a dozen pairs around the buds set for next year may improve wind resistance of the sacrifice branch. It will also help improve the strength of your final branches.

 

[Nickuk74]

Removing all the needles except for a dozen pairs around the buds set for next year may improve wind resistance of the sacrifice branch. It will also help improve the strength of your final branches.

Thanks Brian, I will get on that.

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

Maybe you can use a stake as well to support the sacrifice branch.

 

[Nickuk74]

Maybe you can use a stake as well to support the sacrifice branch.

I thought about that, but apparently if there is movement, the nebari is better.

 

[rockm]

I thought about that, but apparently if there is movement, the nebari is better.

Overrated and mostly a myth. Instability of the trunk actually slows trunk thickening as it slows growth

 

[bwaynef]

Overrated and mostly a myth. Instability of the trunk actually slows trunk thickening as it slows growth

I think what's being described isn't so much instability of the trunk (and the roots presumably) as it having a tendency to move in the wind ...above the roots. If the roots are stable AND the trunk is dealing with movement from the wind, I do think thickening will happen.

 

[Lara_Ericacious]

Uploading a PDF by Linda Chalker-Scott, Ph.D, on thigmomorphogenisis, ie. Plants morphological reactions to repeated "mechanical perturbation"

http://www.theinformedgardener.com

 

[rockm]

I think what's being described isn't so much instability of the trunk (and the roots presumably) as it having a tendency to move in the wind ...above the roots. If the roots are stable AND the trunk is dealing with movement from the wind, I do think thickening will happen.

I think this concept is more in the minds of bonsaists than in reality when it comes to bonsai stock. The forces of leverage and flexing aren’t nearly as pronounced in a three or four foot tall tree as they are in full sized trees. It might add something but not very much IMO. It’s certainly not worth counting on particularly if the tree is not anchored well.

 

[ShimpakuBonsai]

Never heard of that in doing bonsai and I doubt it will add something to a bonsai tree.
With bonsai it's the opposite and we tie our trees into the pot so that they are stable and the (new) roots can develop and settle themselves.

 

[rockm]

I think this concept is more in the minds of bonsaists than in reality when it comes to bonsai stock. The forces of leverage and flexing aren’t nearly as pronounced in a three or four foot tall tree as they are in full sized trees. It might add something but not very much IMO. It’s certainly not worth counting on particularly if the tree is not anchored well.

Rule of physics. The shorter the lever the more force it takes to move it- higher torque. That means you’d need a pretty stiff wind to get an inch diameter trunk to flex much.

 

[bwaynef]

Rule of physics. The shorter the lever the more force it takes to move it- higher torque. That means you’d need a pretty stiff wind to get an inch diameter trunk to flex much.

Or, 5-6’ whips with foliage concentrated at the end.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I’d say try to support the sacrifice, and Brian had a good idea about thinning it out some, but also let it grow if you want thickening. Wind and motion may make a difference, but lots of growth is going to make a difference too.
Maybe develop a few more sacrifice to replace and help heal the current one when it is cut.
Before and after on my big sacrifice.

 

[Nickuk74]

Overrated and mostly a myth. Instability of the trunk actually slows trunk thickening as it slows growth

Interesting.... what is has definitely done is age the bark at the stress point though (unfortunately, that's not the base).

 

[Nickuk74]

I’d say try to support the sacrifice, and Brian had a good idea about thinning it out some, but also let it grow if you want thickening. Wind and motion may make a difference, but lots of growth is going to make a difference too.
Maybe develop a few more sacrifice to replace and help heal the current one when it is cut.
Before and after on my big sacrifice.
View attachment 612052View attachment 612053View attachment 612054

Ok, my sacrifice's don't look so extreme now!

 

[Shibui]

Just remember that extreme sacrifice branches will end up as extreme scars. Make sure you can use them as jin or shari or will be well hidden.
I prefer to replace sacrifice branches before they get too big. It may take a year or 2 more to attain trunk size but years less to heal the scar after.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Yes - definitely strip all of the needles along the length of the branch and only leave foliage at the end. In addition to reducing wind resistance, it keeps sacrifice growth from shading out the rest of your tree.