I agree with most of what was said here. I am new to this with no local club and no mentors at all close. I read books that use language and terminology that I am not familiar with. There are a lot of different opinions on the same subject...very confusing. I, and many others don't have the money to buy finished bonsai or travel all over going to classes. If this art is going to be here in 50 years, it has to be made simpler to the new person coming aboard. Most of us don't want a world class bonsai right out of the box and we may never have one and be totally satisfied. I would like to develop a form, an information format on particular trees that I want to have as bonsai. Most of them would be ones I can collect locally. The form/how to questioner would have very basic questions on it like when to collect, what to do/not to when collecting, when to prune, how to prune, when to repot, how to repot, when to wire, how to wire, when to fertilize, how to fertilize for best results, what fertilizer to use for this tree, how much sun/shade is needed for the best results. Simple questions that need simple, but practical answers that we can understand and follow. If I made up a form like that let's say on locally available Lodgepole Pines, would you answer the questions so I could put the form in my notebook and get on track??
Is the current bonsai instructional system broken?
- Thread starter Owen Reich
- Start date
I agree with most of what was said here. I am new to this with no local club and no mentors at all close. I read books that use language and terminology that I am not familiar with. There are a lot of different opinions on the same subject...very confusing. I, and many others don't have the money to buy finished bonsai or travel all over going to classes. If this art is going to be here in 50 years, it has to be made simpler to the new person coming aboard. Most of us don't want a world class bonsai right out of the box and we may never have one and be totally satisfied. I would like to develop a form, an information format on particular trees that I want to have as bonsai. Most of them would be ones I can collect locally. The form/how to questioner would have very basic questions on it like when to collect, what to do/not to when collecting, when to prune, how to prune, when to repot, how to repot, when to wire, how to wire, when to fertilize, how to fertilize for best results, what fertilizer to use for this tree, how much sun/shade is needed for the best results. Simple questions that need simple, but practical answers that we can understand and follow. If I made up a form like that let's say on locally available Lodgepole Pines, would you answer the questions so I could put the form in my notebook and get on track??
cheap_walmart_art
Omono
I think with instruction on just about anything, no matter the skill level of the instructor, everyone has their gifts. For instance, my wife who has 25+ years of musical experience and education, is perfectly capable of teaching advanced students on the violin and guitar, but she chooses to concentrate on beginner instruction because that is where her passion and gifts lie. She just loves bringing and inspiring music in people of all ages. I think Bonsai instruction could be like this as well, where you may have some instructors who like to concentrate on the beginner and early techniques and instructors who prefer to teach more advanced intensives. If you have a good club with a beginner program, that is awesome, but some areas just don't have that so rely on study groups, internet instruction, and the like. I think this is why you get the huge range of questions to a bonsai pro on the road, for many people inside of a few years to the hobby it might be their one chance to ask all those basic questions floating around in their head.
An example from my own experience is actually with Owen himself. My first year in the hobby, Owen attended a big open house in a nursery in west TN. I had just joined the club and I was full of the typical questions one has when coming into a hobby and surrounded by people into that hobby. The long time club members were all chatting with each other, I felt weird breaking in on conversations and I hear someone say "That's Owen Reich, hes a professional and really good" so now I'm thinking, well this guy is a professional - let me go ask him some questions. I had tree pics on my phone, I bought a pot from him and followed up with a question on some dying mugo pines along the lines of "Hey these died, here are some pics, what went wrong??" He looked at them briefly and basically said he cant tell, but no big loss as they just look like box store stock. I was a little crushed by this because at the time they had been my best trees. I walked away thinking he might just be a jerk. After surfing around the forums, watching videos, and becoming more established in my club I came to realize that guys like Owen get this newbie stuff all the time. That's not how he makes his living, answering random ass questions from strangers. I then came back a few months later for a one on one session with another local artist and I didn't feel like I got much out of it - not because the guy is not good or doesn't have skills, but because my level of knowledge was so low that everything he showed me kind of went over my head.
I am sure that I am not the only one who has had this experience early on in the hobby. Also, despite this forum being full of great and helpful folks, it is also has the snipers that seem to get a kick out of putting new and intermediate hobbyists on blast. For someone who is used to this type of forum situation (Early day BBS's anyone?) this is no big deal. You move on. For the newbie trying to break in to the hobby it can be very intimidating. I'd like to see bonsai instruction in the US possibly broken up a bit more. Maybe have instructors who concentrate on the newbies - get a class of 6 people in year one of the hobby, and really lay down the foundations of watering, fertilizing, container culture, and basic wiring. Then make referrals to the more advanced teachers as the student skills improve.
An example from my own experience is actually with Owen himself. My first year in the hobby, Owen attended a big open house in a nursery in west TN. I had just joined the club and I was full of the typical questions one has when coming into a hobby and surrounded by people into that hobby. The long time club members were all chatting with each other, I felt weird breaking in on conversations and I hear someone say "That's Owen Reich, hes a professional and really good" so now I'm thinking, well this guy is a professional - let me go ask him some questions. I had tree pics on my phone, I bought a pot from him and followed up with a question on some dying mugo pines along the lines of "Hey these died, here are some pics, what went wrong??" He looked at them briefly and basically said he cant tell, but no big loss as they just look like box store stock. I was a little crushed by this because at the time they had been my best trees. I walked away thinking he might just be a jerk. After surfing around the forums, watching videos, and becoming more established in my club I came to realize that guys like Owen get this newbie stuff all the time. That's not how he makes his living, answering random ass questions from strangers. I then came back a few months later for a one on one session with another local artist and I didn't feel like I got much out of it - not because the guy is not good or doesn't have skills, but because my level of knowledge was so low that everything he showed me kind of went over my head.
I am sure that I am not the only one who has had this experience early on in the hobby. Also, despite this forum being full of great and helpful folks, it is also has the snipers that seem to get a kick out of putting new and intermediate hobbyists on blast. For someone who is used to this type of forum situation (Early day BBS's anyone?) this is no big deal. You move on. For the newbie trying to break in to the hobby it can be very intimidating. I'd like to see bonsai instruction in the US possibly broken up a bit more. Maybe have instructors who concentrate on the newbies - get a class of 6 people in year one of the hobby, and really lay down the foundations of watering, fertilizing, container culture, and basic wiring. Then make referrals to the more advanced teachers as the student skills improve.
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Not a poor example. Saying so misses the point. To drive an effective "system" requires administrators and teachers who are willing to shoulder the work. People with "regular jobs and family" have been behind more than a few hobby-oriented movements...just sayin. I ain't one of them, never have been. Too lazy being a snob with regular job and a family. However, I don't spend time bitching about something I can't "fix." I have heard these complaints for years, from club members, online and in person. IT BOILS DOWN TO WORK, just like anything else worthwhile. Unless someone steps up to take on the job of ACTUALLY ORGANIZING a formal educational program, it's just whining. ABS and some clubs have already done some of that work. That's a place to start.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
What IS the Bonsai Instructional System?
If we consider 3 things and place a value on them, horticulture, design, and personality, no teachers will end up with the same values, and I'm talking across the board, from gents as yourself, to @B-rad in GR who's posting videos.
This is all valuable.
However, we lack the discipline to apply any knowledge correctly in our own gardens, due to the intricacies that begin with identifying vigor, and end in a "thousand years", or beyond our lifetime.
There are no courses teaching this.
It can't be taught in today society.
Righteously, a pro will stay in his garden.
A club should send a member to apprentice.
That is where the discipline comes from.
Structure.
Currently, too many chiefs.
.....
Just of demos.
I learned more watching a @Walter Pall video of...
In a way, it is better because it is faster, like a 2minute video, you know, info info info...
Throw a towel over a tree's branch, see why the cut makes it better, move on.
He did many trees, more valuable info in one hour than "styling a tree", which, few people have material the same as, where, going thru many trees, you are sure to find more insight to how you may treat one of your actual trees.
.......
Final thoughts.
It's an up Mt. Fuji battle.
With Tanuki balls on your chin.
Seriously....
The Shows should be the final straw. We should be paying professionals everywhere to set up High Quality show.
If it's 3 displays, let it be small, but perfect.
By simply having the excellence displayed to strive for, more will achieve it.
Any other "Show", be it flower, dog, fish, boat, reptile, etc...
You don't see sub par shit.
Only at bonsai shows.
Sorce
If we consider 3 things and place a value on them, horticulture, design, and personality, no teachers will end up with the same values, and I'm talking across the board, from gents as yourself, to @B-rad in GR who's posting videos.
This is all valuable.
However, we lack the discipline to apply any knowledge correctly in our own gardens, due to the intricacies that begin with identifying vigor, and end in a "thousand years", or beyond our lifetime.
There are no courses teaching this.
It can't be taught in today society.
Righteously, a pro will stay in his garden.
A club should send a member to apprentice.
That is where the discipline comes from.
Structure.
Currently, too many chiefs.
.....
Just of demos.
I learned more watching a @Walter Pall video of...
In a way, it is better because it is faster, like a 2minute video, you know, info info info...
Throw a towel over a tree's branch, see why the cut makes it better, move on.
He did many trees, more valuable info in one hour than "styling a tree", which, few people have material the same as, where, going thru many trees, you are sure to find more insight to how you may treat one of your actual trees.
.......
Final thoughts.
It's an up Mt. Fuji battle.
With Tanuki balls on your chin.
Seriously....
The Shows should be the final straw. We should be paying professionals everywhere to set up High Quality show.
If it's 3 displays, let it be small, but perfect.
By simply having the excellence displayed to strive for, more will achieve it.
Any other "Show", be it flower, dog, fish, boat, reptile, etc...
You don't see sub par shit.
Only at bonsai shows.
Sorce
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
I get what you're saying, but I disagree. The pinnacle shows should absolutely be super selective. Something like the Artisan's Cup that Ryan Neil organized. Shows for the absolute top of the craft. However, in order for the community to grow there has to be a pro-am level. Something ppl can aspire to as they build upon their skills. Somewhere that they can get constructive criticism and build upon that. Local clubs (I suspect as I don't have access to one) aren't enough.
If shows were strictly for the upmost best examples ppl would quit bonsai. Very few of us will ever dedicate the time required to get to that level.....and there's nothing wrong with that. Without the pro-am level us mere mortals that work 9-5 jobs have nothing to aspire to. Heck, even helping others with their modest material helps as it keeps you engaged in the hobby beyond your own collection.
Cadillactaste
Neagari Gal
I certainly didn't take this personal. I seen it as Owen posted (who has taught) a change in direction.
Rockm mentioned of one who has done more in that aspect.
I didn't take offense that a mere hobbiest needed to do more if content where they are. That I don't believe his intentions at all.
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
No offense, but a lot of this sounds like whining. Part of engaging in a hobby is constant improvement and slowly becoming more and more involved.
I joined a club last year. 1st meeting I knew no one. Was it awkward? Maybe? But I went, listened, put myself out there. Now a year later, after about 6 meetings, i know some people, talk to some members via text, started to form some friendships.
People think everything comes easy and when its tough, they lose interest. I think its the opposite... people lose interest when things are too easy and there is the perception of no further advancement possible. I hate to say it but those who dont get over the first 'hump' either a) aren't investing enough TIME in the hobby or b) never really were interested enough to begin with. This goes for all hobbies, just not bonsai.
Lars Grimm
Chumono
I strongly agree with this. Even having two divisions at a show (versus two separate shows) would be extremely helpful to build up the bench of people to get to the higher levels.
Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Local club shows are instrumental in bringing in new recruits. These shows absolutely need several things that together draw in new members. There need to some trees that viewers can look at and say, "I can do that". Vendors need to be on-site and sell trees that are good ~finished~ starters that attendees can take home as house plants. Free demos, not lectures on site. A Raffle with anything bonsai that raises money for the club and offers items that all sorts of people would like. Workshops are also very desirable. Local shows are for local people. Big Shooter shows may or may not increase interest in local clubs. They are nice, but need to be held in more densely populated locations which rules out a very large population that can be served nicely with a local club show. All things in relative perspective.
Rafael Najmanovich
Mame
Here's a science-based bonsai book. https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Bonsa...=modern+bonsai+practice&qid=1578410677&sr=8-1
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Another "hobby" that might provide a model--the American Kennel Club and the loose structure of dog breed club shows affiliated with it. Local Dog breed clubs have long been the catalyst for thousands of regional shows. The AKC oversees the efforts, but it's up to the locals to do the grunt work. I know first hand all that work is VERY HARD and takes a lot of time, but people affiliated with the clubs are willing to give both.They've been doing so for decades. Why's that?
Bonsai_Bentley
Mame
For someone like me Bonsai Mirai has been a godsend. I've always kind of been intrigued by bonsai for the beauty of it, but I've never really taken the time to become proficient at it. I was content with working in my landscape. This past year I decided that I'd finally take the dive into bonsai. The biggest hurdle was figuring out where to go for information. I'm not much of a reader, so books couldn't be my main source of information. I do use them for supplemental information and inspiration. No local bonsai clubs. There isn't even a local bonsai shop. It's such a niche hobby.
Someone on Reddit suggested Mirai and I haven't looked back. I've learned more in a year than I had in a decade. A lot of that was my renewed interest in the hobby. Having the content organized and consumable on Mirai was the other part of that. The problem though was that Ryan is heavy on conifers. While they're beautiful I just don't have access to the trees he's working on. Not easy access at least. Luckily the Mirai team has started to work more deciduous material into the streams.
Beyond Mirai it's been difficult to find reliable information. Well, free information at least. I'm told that Bonsai Empire is good as well, but I don't have unlimited funds. Paying for another service doesn't make sense to my wallet. There really just seems to be a lot of varying opinions, so I find it best to find a single source that speaks to my interests and bias and go from there. Right now Mirai is enough for me.
There's definitely no substitute for working with actual material though. It'd probably be awesome to work with a pro, but how much can you gain if you only work with them once? I'd love to see more pros stay put and put on classes that ppl could attend. I've signed up for a Mirai class in 2021. It's expensive (like embarrassingly so) and I have to travel coast to coast in order to attend which only adds to the expense. If there were regional options I'd be able to attend more. That said, Bonsai Learning Center puts on classes that are reasonable and it's less than 4 hours away. I'll be attending classes this year. It would awesome if pros were based at botanical gardens. Ppl that frequent them are already into plants. Understand the client-base and reach out to them while they're already taking the time to appreciate nature. Sadly, no such garden exists around me. Cultural diversity just isn't a thing here.
Last thing I'll say is that the community itself can be toxic which is fascinating. Everyone thinks that they're the Mandalorian and swears that "this is the way". It's rare to find ppl that understand that other ppl either live in other regions of the world or have their own preferences. It even comes down to how ppl build their trees. I'm personally into bonsai for the experimental side of it as well as the challenge of not only keeping plants alive, but thriving as well. I couldn't care less about having "proper taper" and super dope dinner plate nebaris. I'm not building show trees. I'm building trees that I find to be beautiful while giving them the best care that I can. However, we're quick to turn on each other. At lot of times that's just disheartening which leads me to be more reclusive about this. I rarely post on here because of that. I lurk and once the bile starts to spew I move on to the next topic. I don't know what it is about bonsai that makes ppl behave this way, but I suspect this is why some local clubs are intimidating/difficult to join.
Someone on Reddit suggested Mirai and I haven't looked back. I've learned more in a year than I had in a decade. A lot of that was my renewed interest in the hobby. Having the content organized and consumable on Mirai was the other part of that. The problem though was that Ryan is heavy on conifers. While they're beautiful I just don't have access to the trees he's working on. Not easy access at least. Luckily the Mirai team has started to work more deciduous material into the streams.
Beyond Mirai it's been difficult to find reliable information. Well, free information at least. I'm told that Bonsai Empire is good as well, but I don't have unlimited funds. Paying for another service doesn't make sense to my wallet. There really just seems to be a lot of varying opinions, so I find it best to find a single source that speaks to my interests and bias and go from there. Right now Mirai is enough for me.
There's definitely no substitute for working with actual material though. It'd probably be awesome to work with a pro, but how much can you gain if you only work with them once? I'd love to see more pros stay put and put on classes that ppl could attend. I've signed up for a Mirai class in 2021. It's expensive (like embarrassingly so) and I have to travel coast to coast in order to attend which only adds to the expense. If there were regional options I'd be able to attend more. That said, Bonsai Learning Center puts on classes that are reasonable and it's less than 4 hours away. I'll be attending classes this year. It would awesome if pros were based at botanical gardens. Ppl that frequent them are already into plants. Understand the client-base and reach out to them while they're already taking the time to appreciate nature. Sadly, no such garden exists around me. Cultural diversity just isn't a thing here.
Last thing I'll say is that the community itself can be toxic which is fascinating. Everyone thinks that they're the Mandalorian and swears that "this is the way". It's rare to find ppl that understand that other ppl either live in other regions of the world or have their own preferences. It even comes down to how ppl build their trees. I'm personally into bonsai for the experimental side of it as well as the challenge of not only keeping plants alive, but thriving as well. I couldn't care less about having "proper taper" and super dope dinner plate nebaris. I'm not building show trees. I'm building trees that I find to be beautiful while giving them the best care that I can. However, we're quick to turn on each other. At lot of times that's just disheartening which leads me to be more reclusive about this. I rarely post on here because of that. I lurk and once the bile starts to spew I move on to the next topic. I don't know what it is about bonsai that makes ppl behave this way, but I suspect this is why some local clubs are intimidating/difficult to join.
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
When I started playing bass I was 13. Was I good at that time? No! But i still had my shitty high school band with my buddies. Was I scared when I played our first show and auditioned for the school talent show? Yes! Shaking in my boots/sneakers. I could have quit at that point and said this sucks but I liked playing music so I stuck with it.
I had another band when I was 18. Played my first big shows with them. It took time to get to that point. Auditioning at the time was pretty nervewracking. I drove myself to a weird ass city and met guys who had been playing music longer than id been alive. Was it comfortable and pleasant? No! Did I have a good time and make some great friends? Ultimately Yes!
Its been 20 years now. I finally feel like I am at the point where I am considered a respectable bass player. I had someone call me a week ago I played with 10 years ago looking for me to come join a new project. He was a someone I met way back when I was 18. I get invites all the time now for session work (which i turn down) and other stuff.
It takes TIME and energy. Bonsai is no different. Before the internet, how did people get involved in hobbies? They sucked in their chest, counted to three, and took a leap into unknown waters. People now expect youtube videos, step by step tutorials, instant assistance via phone apps.
Its not the responsibility of those who spent TIME learning to go out of their way to spend more TIME teaching newcomers basics which simply take TIME, reading, and hands on doing to learn. I dont expect my bonsai club to hold my hand and tell me when to start tilting my watering can and when to stop tilting my watering can. I hope they would give me advice - if I ask - if a species is prone to root rot, or if it likes dry soil, or does it do ok in wetter soils, but even then... i only expect answers when I ask and put effort into it.
I spend a lot of TIME reading. Ive watched all the available free mirai online videos multiple times... ive watched every Nigel Saunders video, ive read several books and a ton of online material. I spend time outdoors with field guides and make mental note of what im seeing in the landscape.
I get people buying a cruddy tree at lowes - i was there yesterday and their junipers were as dry as dusty bones in an ancient grave - and not knowing how to care for it... but if I buy a tool, or an instrument, or a plant, or anything, i spend a crap ton of time learning about it.
This whole sentiment of expecting a 'bonsai master' to tell you to not wipe your ass after pruning a needle juniper is ridiculous. How much hand holding do people expect?
I had another band when I was 18. Played my first big shows with them. It took time to get to that point. Auditioning at the time was pretty nervewracking. I drove myself to a weird ass city and met guys who had been playing music longer than id been alive. Was it comfortable and pleasant? No! Did I have a good time and make some great friends? Ultimately Yes!
Its been 20 years now. I finally feel like I am at the point where I am considered a respectable bass player. I had someone call me a week ago I played with 10 years ago looking for me to come join a new project. He was a someone I met way back when I was 18. I get invites all the time now for session work (which i turn down) and other stuff.
It takes TIME and energy. Bonsai is no different. Before the internet, how did people get involved in hobbies? They sucked in their chest, counted to three, and took a leap into unknown waters. People now expect youtube videos, step by step tutorials, instant assistance via phone apps.
Its not the responsibility of those who spent TIME learning to go out of their way to spend more TIME teaching newcomers basics which simply take TIME, reading, and hands on doing to learn. I dont expect my bonsai club to hold my hand and tell me when to start tilting my watering can and when to stop tilting my watering can. I hope they would give me advice - if I ask - if a species is prone to root rot, or if it likes dry soil, or does it do ok in wetter soils, but even then... i only expect answers when I ask and put effort into it.
I spend a lot of TIME reading. Ive watched all the available free mirai online videos multiple times... ive watched every Nigel Saunders video, ive read several books and a ton of online material. I spend time outdoors with field guides and make mental note of what im seeing in the landscape.
I get people buying a cruddy tree at lowes - i was there yesterday and their junipers were as dry as dusty bones in an ancient grave - and not knowing how to care for it... but if I buy a tool, or an instrument, or a plant, or anything, i spend a crap ton of time learning about it.
This whole sentiment of expecting a 'bonsai master' to tell you to not wipe your ass after pruning a needle juniper is ridiculous. How much hand holding do people expect?
Lars Grimm
Chumono
This is a pretty good book that definitely tries to dispel a number of commonly held 'truths.' The first that comes to mind is organic versus inorganic fertilizers. I've read it a few times and find that I get more out of it with more experience.
Indeed, Bill V has done a great deal to promote bonsai, bonsai education, and the exhibition of bonsai. There’s a reason he’s in the Bonsai Hall of Fame!
@PABonsai posted about bonsai education in Japan. I’m familiar with the apprentice system, but not with education for the general public.
That's a contradiction. You're right, to have a good system we need administrators and teachers to step up. Those are careers, paid people. That's what I'm advocating. But then you go on claiming that stepping up lies solely on our uneducated heads. Your third from last sentence is exactly what we are asking for, someone to step up and set up a way to teach us efficiently.
The apprenticeship model is partly what I'm referring to. I am referring to the fact that it doesn't take a fortune to become an apprentice and those apprentices aren't hobbyists but industry men, and per square miles Japan has many more potential bonsai practitioners both layman and industry men. I would assume that general knowledge is more widespread as we know even common folk participate in the art. There is just more diffuse knowledge there. I just am pointing to the fact that being a Japanese art and Japan being much more close knit means for them the education system doesn't have to rely on travel whereas here it necessarily does UNLESS the learned diffuse that knowledge.
I love my club! Have been a member for 3 years. I think it could be a model for other clubs to emulate. And if your goal is to improve bonsai education than working through local clubs that can share your program will have the largest impact IMO.
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rockm
Spuds Moyogi
Oh for crying out loud...stop being so victimized... What I'm saying is that to have an effective system requires a lot of self-sacrifice and unpaid labor. That's not an easy pill for most to swallow. Whining that there are no easy, close solutions is just that --- whining.
Want to change things? You have to be willing to accept long hours with no pay. It's easy to say "someone" has to "step up" and come up with a way to teach. Since you see problems, do you want to change things?--if so, how are YOU going to help make that happen?--even a little bit
I happen to think this is well-traveled ground and we're making progress--the increasing numbers of Japanese-trained instructors who are returning to the U.S. and setting up their own operations is a HUGE advance. As are the increasing numbers of people collecting native materials and increasing interest in shows like Bill V's (and Mirai's although another one of those doesn't seem to be materializing).
No one is claiming to be a victim. We do exactly what you're bitching we don't do. You have no idea what each of us does to further their education. But you don't put setting up an educational system on the shoulders of those that aren't educated. That's stupid. Owen asked for thoughts. Just because you disagree doesn't mean you are smarter and we all have to sit down and shut up.
