Is anyone using pine bark in their bonsai soil ?

[WNC Bonsai]

I sift composted pine bark to recover the 3-6mm size fraction then mix it in my bonsai mix which is pumice and heat expanded slate sifted to the same size range. I vary the mix depending on the plants water needs. Pines get about 10% bark in the mix whereas spruce, hemlock, and hinokis get 30%. Deciduous trees also get about 30%. The bark helps hold moisture but also is important to retaining nutrients as Leo explained. The pine bark will decompose over several years but I usually repot on a 2-3 year cycle anyway. So in your case the pine bark should help retain more moisture for your plants in Pakistan but you will have to experiment with the mixture to find what is the best amount for your trees.

 

[R3x]

@R3x ,

did a 30 years of our soil mix in use [ Tropics ] check, found only
the fne feeder roots and no decomposition of the inorganics.
No loss of any factors.
On our side it is the ball bearing principle [ O2 supply ] water
retentionn / fertiliser ] and microbes for root health [ compost ]

If you are using no teabags, the fermented oil seed meal will
supply compost as well as NPK.

As far as I recall, Mr. Pall's technique uses broken Leca and
dug up large trunked trees.
No need for ground growing/ trunk thickening /root training.
As roots die in the leca mix, compost is made, as well as insect etc.
poop.
6 of one , half a dozen of the other.

The real difference in Mr. Pall's work to Japanese work. Is how
the branches are placed.
Good Day
Anthony

Anthony,

I do not think the only difference is that Walter Pall uses big yamadori trees that do not need trunk thickening. I was basically referring to this article of his: http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html
He mentions using peat for better water retention (however still mentions it takes up to 5 year for it to decompose). What has become popular here is Zeolite. It is used (as Walter Pall suggests) universally for all kinds of plants. It provides good water retention and ability to release it, no risk of overwatering, very liberal and forgiving use of fertilizer, good aeration and very fine feeder root system (thick roots obviously cannot grow there). It is quite cheap (certainly cheaper than akadama). The only downside is that it is a bit heavier than anything else. I use it for (almost) everything.

That being said - I certainly do not want to claim all the other ways are wrong. As written in the article - what works for you, works for you.

 

[Anthony]

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html

 

[Ali Raza]

http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html

Good piece of information. It seems I am already following his footsteps.

 

[Trenthany]

I use pine bark in my mix. Lava rock, expanded clay and pine bark. It works for me.

After hours of reading about soil, and many visits to local bonsai people asking questions this is my mix too. I can get Akadama but it and pumice are described almost universally as for purists. Wigart’s uses 1:1:1 lava, pine bark, beatty’s for all their trees.

 

[sdavis]

That would be considered composted bark. I re-use bark from repotting orchids. ''True composting'' happens at an elevated temperature in a compost pile, usually left as a pile until it stops generating large amounts of heat. In North America, a few months to a year. BUT similar chemical changes happen more slowly at room temperatures (ambient temps outdoors) with bark being used in a pot. Bacteria, fungi, yeasts, and other organisms do the same degrading of the bark that a compost pile would do in a relatively short time. The wood sugars are degraded to simpler compounds, the cellulose is partially decomposed. The hemicellulose and various lignins that give rigidity to wood and bark are broken down into simpler ''wood sugars'' like xylitol, xylose, arabinose and other 5 carbon sugars and phenolics. Basically the easy to digest portions of wood and bark are degraded, leaving the slower to decompose parts in the bark & wood. The openings created by the decomposition where materials were removed by decomposition make the bark chips more like miniature sponge chips. And the remaining organics are great food for mycorrhiza. Eventually bark crumbles into smaller and smaller pieces.

Fir bark can decompose in a pot from fresh to crumbles of dust in about 7 to 8 years in the Chicago area, quicker if you fertilize more often, which encourages certain decomposition organisms (I don't know just which ones). Radiata pine bark will last a good 10 to 15 years before it is reduced to powder. For epiphytic orchids, in fir bark repotting is usually at 2 years, for radiata repotting is usually at or before 5 years. This time is plenty to begin make the water holding and porosity of more ideal as a potting mix for trees.

Nice post! Any references for those of us who want to learn more about the processes described in your first paragraph?

 

[sdavis]

Anthony,

I do not think the only difference is that Walter Pall uses big yamadori trees that do not need trunk thickening. I was basically referring to this article of his: http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/2010/06/feeding-substrate-and-watering-english.html
He mentions using peat for better water retention (however still mentions it takes up to 5 year for it to decompose). What has become popular here is Zeolite. It is used (as Walter Pall suggests) universally for all kinds of plants. It provides good water retention and ability to release it, no risk of overwatering, very liberal and forgiving use of fertilizer, good aeration and very fine feeder root system (thick roots obviously cannot grow there). It is quite cheap (certainly cheaper than akadama). The only downside is that it is a bit heavier than anything else. I use it for (almost) everything.

Has anyone found a good North American source for zeolite?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Has anyone found a good North American source for zeolite?

Zeolite is broadly available in a large number of forms for a large number of purposes. Back in the day, I even used it in marine aquariums as an emergency ammonia absorption medium.

For bonsai purposes, the shipping will kill you, so you need to find a local source. Doing a quick search in my area comes up with this product:



40 lb bag for $20 - local pickup. Can't comment on the piece size since I haven't used it, but the description says "granules".

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice post! Any references for those of us who want to learn more about the processes described in your first paragraph?

No one reference is coming to mind. There are huge numbers of references on composting. Also Google "biochar" and "soil carbon". There's a lot to wade thru.

 

[Trenthany]

Has anyone found a good North American source for zeolite?

I just got a load of free used perlite in FL I can ask if he knows where to get zeolite as well.

 

[Vance Wood]

There are some bonsai purists that insist that Pine bark mulch (composted) should not be used, or any other organic substance for that matter. I totally disagree with that concept. I have been using composted Pine bark mulch for more than forty years, and I have not come to any conclusions that I should stop using it. The Mugo below has been in that knd of soil mix for over forty years. This set of photos starts from 1997 through 2016 as the design was drastically changed......Same soil mix.

set of

 

[Shima]

He mentions using peat for better water retention

It's important to know that the peat Walter refers to is not what we in the US know as peat. He calls it "rough peat."

 

[TobyP]

Yes, if it's composted. More info here. In the UK I use a product from Melcourt and sieve out the fines.

Good to know you use Melcourt! I’ve had difficulty understanding which of the many brands of composted bark I could rely on.

 

[Clicio]

There are a number of pinus sp that do well in sub-tropical...
Brisbane (sub tropical) bonsai growers report that Japanese Black pine grows OK

I have been using pine bark as a part of my mix for all my trees, including JBP and JRP, which by the way grow happy and thrive here in São Paulo (USDA zone 10b)

 

[Trenthany]

Does anyone do multilevel sifting? I sift out from 1/2 inch down to 1/8th of an inch and the fines get all mixed together with sifted compost and swamp muck from collections, left over soils, etc. to make an amazing potting soil, a shohin substrate up one level, regular substrate up another level and the bigger stuff will go in the composter. It made my $75 purchase into 15 gal of regular bonsai mix, 10 gal of shohin, 5 gal of compost material and 15 or so of the fines from everything mixed together. I won’t be buying soil of any kind for a while! Lol Just curious as to what everyone else does with their fines and large pieces and if they sift for them.

 

[Shima]

The best thing about orchid seedling bark? No sifting! Home Depot has it here.

 

[Vance Wood]

The best thing about orchid seedling bark? No sifting! Home Depot has it here.

No matter what you do there is something wrong with it. Using orchid bark creates a problem where the decomposition of the bark can leech the Nitrogen out of the soil; so they say.

 

[Trenthany]

An interesting view from a gardener column in New Orleans. NOLA.com to be precise. Does a good job of explaining the principles and why I composter barks are considered “nitrogen sinks”. For those debating whether or not it’s true it is the most clarifying article I’ve found on the subject yet.

Q:

Recently, I read that wood mulches can deplete the soil of nitrogen as they break down. Is this true? If so, what can I add to the soil to compensate for this nitrogen depletion? Or is there another kind of mulch you would recommend that is readily available? Would it be OK to mulch using the fallen leaves of live oak trees? -- Karen Shaw


A: The nitrogen is not actually depleted, it's temporarily tied up. This can happen when organic materials low in nitrogen, such as shredded wood chips or pine bark, are incorporated into the soil. The microorganisms that utilize the low-nitrogen organic matter as food (decaying it) must obtain the nitrogen they need from somewhere else. They take nitrogen from the soil and, in doing so, tie it up in their bodies as their populations surge. When the organic matter is largely decayed, and the food runs out, the microorganisms begin to die. This returns the tied-up nitrogen back to the soil, with the added benefit of decayed organic matter. The problem arises during the decomposition phase. At that time, so much nitrogen may be tied up in the bodies of microorganisms that plants are unable to obtain all they need to be healthy. This leads to pale leaves and stunted growth, symptoms of nitrogen deficiency.


To keep this from happening, the gardener can do one of two things. First, the organic matter can be composted before use. That way the decomposition process has already occurred, and the addition of the material will not lead to tied-up nitrogen. Or the gardener could simply add a nitrogen-containing fertilizer at the time the organic matter is added. That way, there will be enough nitrogen to satisfy the needs of the microorganisms and the plants. Granular general purpose fertilizers, such as 15-5-10, or organic fertilizers like blood meal or cotton seed meal would be fine.

Now, for your situation, you can simply ignore everything I just said. That information applies when you incorporate organic matter into the soil. When you use low-nitrogen organic materials for mulch, such as cypress mulch, wood mulch, pine bark mulch, pine straw or fallen leaves (oak leaves make an excellent mulch), nitrogen tie-up is not an issue. The organic matter is applied on top of the soil and interacts with only the very surface of the soil. It decomposes slowly at the surface without affecting available nitrogen levels down in the bed.

PS testing my understanding of the forum mechanics and trying a quote without the reply button.
Edit: It worked!

 

[Anthony]

40 years - simple yard compost - weeds, kitchen scraps, leaves and bamboo
sifted -aged in a covered barrel for a year [ sprouted dead weed seed ]
1 to 3 parts

- 9 to 7 parts inorganic - 5 mm and now also 3 mm.

KISS.
Good Day
General Anthony

* Before that it was cow or horse manure or peat moss.
Still peat moss for the coarse azalea.