Impediments to beginners?

[MSU JBoots]

This is a tangent but the last post has me curious. What qualifies as pre-bonsai? I am under the impression that if I bought a bonsai it would be well developed with primary and secondary structure set but maybe needing tertiary refinement and maintenance care for sure. Nursery stock I consider as trees grown for landscape purposes that had no original intent to be used for bonsai. Pre-bonsai I assume means they were grown for that purpose or at least being trained for that purpose. I would anticipate this would entail so root work with the development of the beginnings of a nebari, trunk line, and likely some primary structural pruning. Am I in the right neighborhood on this thinking?

 

[ABCarve]

Understanding the huge commitment it is to do bonsai well.

 

[Katie0317]

Learning bonsai is also learning about yourself. People assume because they're good at gardening they'll be good at bonsai.

If I plant rose bushes and know how to care for them in a years time I'll have vases of cut roses many days of the week. In a years time with small bonsai trees I'll still have small bonsai trees.

Many people don't have the patience or the mindset to do the work it takes to grow bonsai.

We live in an immediate gratification society. We want it now. Lots of people don't want to wait years to grow a bonsai tree. I think that's part of why people quit. That was the question you asked or wasn't it?

 

[ShadyStump]

Understanding the huge commitment it is to do bonsai well.

And this, I think, is a possible impediment to beginners itself.
I think we can all easily agree there's the artist, and then there's the hobbyist, and they have different expectations of bonsai, and should have different expectations placed upon them.
That said, half-assing it is never an acceptable expectation.

 

[Agriff]

As a beginner, this has been what has been hard for me:

-Upfront costs. You pay for quality trees in either time or money. Growing out pre-bonsai is like a completely different craft from refinement, and your first non-nursery stock bonsai is probably going to be a straight up gamble as to whether you take care of it properly enough to not kill it or make beginner mistakes with design. Not to mention the costs of pots, tools, and materials. I still haven't bought any akadama because I'm using pond baskets for most of my growers, and I'm hoping to God that Napa 8822 works good enough.

-Learning the difference between personal taste and best practice. Swelling joints due to several branches in one area is almost universally considered undesirable, because there are certain things that just break the illusion of a miniature tree. Whether or not certain features of a tree accurately represent their counterparts as found in nature is a completely different type of discussion, and a lot of things come down to personal taste. It's been hard for me to separate out the two, and even harder to start to recognize and articulate my own taste.

-The science. So much learning about macronutrients, substrates, sap flow, growth cycles, climate requirements, etc etc etc. It's one of my favorite parts of the hobby because it really deepens my love for a tree to learn so much about it, but at the same time it's all new material for me and a lot to learn.

-Realizing that in order to get the best results, you have to take risks. Which means losing trees. Which means it's way easier to grow in bonsai if you have tons of trees. Which in my case means that I have had to do some hard thinking on how much of my time, energy, yard space, garage space, etc. I really have to devote to this, because it can really suck you in if you let it!

 

[badatusernames]

I keep coming back to this thread and I suddenly realized that it's because some of it makes me feel a bit defensive as a newbie who 100%, absolutely, without a doubt, fully and knowingly is Doing the Wrong Thing on (some) trees, and that he's in over his head on others. Sink or swim, baby. I'm gonna remember the lessons I learn, I guarantee it. I'm not going to explain, because then that's just a newbie trying to defend his dumb shit. I know it's dumb shit.

What I mean by this is, is no one is going to want to post or share or go to groups if there's this shroud of judgement over the entire subject. While the pinnacle of bonsai may require a level of study that most will never achieve, I'd still suggest it a positive thing for folks to be into. Weren't bonsai trees things regular folks would put out as well? I imagine they weren't all bonsai masters, it was just a nice thing. I love diving into the deeper aspects of it, personally, but there's always this feeling that folks are kicking around laughing at your dumb ass in the background. I've just personally decided I don't really give a shit.

So yeah I'd come back to that and say that it's a bit difficult and intimidating to approach the bonsai crowd, and there aren't exactly many other resources out there. So I don't really know what folks expect in terms of a pipeline for new entrants to the hobby or even the high art end.

 

[ShadyStump]

I keep coming back to this thread and I suddenly realized that it's because some of it makes me feel a bit defensive as a newbie who 100%, absolutely, without a doubt, fully and knowingly is Doing the Wrong Thing on (some) trees, and that he's in over his head on others. Sink or swim, baby. I'm gonna remember the lessons I learn, I guarantee it. I'm not going to explain, because then that's just a newbie trying to defend his dumb shit. I know it's dumb shit.

What I mean by this is, is no one is going to want to post or share or go to groups if there's this shroud of judgement over the entire subject. While the pinnacle of bonsai may require a level of study that most will never achieve, I'd still suggest it a positive thing for folks to be into. Weren't bonsai trees things regular folks would put out as well? I imagine they weren't all bonsai masters, it was just a nice thing. I love diving into the deeper aspects of it, personally, but there's always this feeling that folks are kicking around laughing at your dumb ass in the background. I've just personally decided I don't really give a shit.

So yeah I'd come back to that and say that it's a bit difficult and intimidating to approach the bonsai crowd, and there aren't exactly many other resources out there. So I don't really know what folks expect in terms of a pipeline for new entrants to the hobby or even the high art end.

I understand completely.
I know I've been kicking around halfassing everything since I started in 2019, and I've attempted experiments knowing full well I'd likely kill a tree, and have even excitedly posted failures just to push home the learning factor, and let others know that success is not always the aim. We learn 100 things from every failure, but only one thing per success.

That said, I've recently made the conscious decision that, for me, it's time to take it seriously enough to grow. I've gotten my feet wet long enough. It's time to swim.

 

[badatusernames]

I understand completely.
I know I've been kicking around halfassing everything since I started in 2019, and I've attempted experiments knowing full well I'd likely kill a tree, and have even excitedly posted failures just to push home the learning factor, and let others know that success is not always the aim. We learn 100 things from every failure, but only one thing per success.

That said, I've recently made the conscious decision that, for me, it's time to take it seriously enough to grow. I've gotten my feet wet long enough. It's time to swim.

Exactly!

And sorry - don't mean to thread hijack by any means, I was just reflecting on why I kept thinking about a thread that had absolutely nothing to do with me haha

 

[TinyArt]

Exactly!

And sorry - don't mean to thread hijack by any means, I was just reflecting on why I kept thinking about a thread that had absolutely nothing to do with me haha

And maybe it doesn't -- seems to me you're one of the beginners whose learning style is wade in & wrestle, no-holds-barred -- you don't quit, you stick it out and improve by learning first-hand & scoping out the working knowledge here.

I have the impression that part of the OP's concern is better "newbie retention" in a local club setting -- membership is the lifeblood of any in-person club, but there's always a rotation of new folks in & out. There's a big difference between curiousity and commitment!

 

[penumbra]

I know I've been kicking around halfassing everything since I started in 2019

Wow! You have a lot of half assing ahead of you. I have been half assing it for half a century.

 

[August44]

I've been at this a bit over three years. I have collected a number of good yamadori in the Mts close by. The biggest drawback for me is there is no one with knowledge here, and no club that is close. I have to drive 2+ hours to get to a club function and then there is the motel and food and finding someone who will spend the time with me. I also think some of this could be dummied down for new folks so it's not so confusing. It seems like there are way too many different answers to simple questions...confusing! Not whining, just wish it was easier to become more knowledgeable. I really envy you people that have clubs close and know how to make things work!

 

[badatusernames]

And maybe it doesn't -- seems to me you're one of the beginners whose learning style is wade in & wrestle, no-holds-barred -- you don't quit, you stick it out and improve by learning first-hand & scoping out the working knowledge here.

I have the impression that part of the OP's concern is better "newbie retention" in a local club setting -- membership is the lifeblood of any in-person club, but there's always a rotation of new folks in & out. There's a big difference between curiousity and commitment!

yeah, I’m going to give local clubs another effort for sure. I feel like I basically wandered in to a couple, didn’t know what to say, and then emailed some literal bonsai masters, me being oblivious to the scope of the bonsai scene in America, like “Hey wanna hang out” when it didn’t work right away

Anyways if anyone was wondering, Suthin does not want to hang out

 

[rockm]

I think intimidation is a large unspoken obstacle in bonsai, as it is in learning any new sport/activity/hobby.

I used to teach skiing a very very long time ago.
Lots of beginners had it firmly in their minds "not to fall" on their first lesson--some perceived falling as some kind of idiot move that marked them as uncool. Others were afraid of getting hurt. Falling on your first lesson--or fifth, or as an instructor, is part of the activity. It happens to everyone. Fearing it can add to the damage.

I learned that folks either learned to laugh at that fear and manage it, or they never really got over the perceived indignity of falling and quit. BTW, some even said falling was MY fault for not teaching well enough--never mind all that complicated gravity/physics stuff. I learned the best students weren't all that afraid of falling or making a fool of themselves, if it meant they actually learned how to ski. They learned HOW to fall to avoid injuries...I also saw people who were overly intimidated and scared of what they were doing get some fairly bad injuries fighting a fall. I also saw those who were overconfident of their capabilities, or dismissive of the challenges of advanced terrain and instruction, get badly injured too.

Take from this what you will, but being intimidated CAN be an impediment. It can also be a tool. Don't let it stop you. Learn how to fall with some style and understand why you did.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I find beginners think they can learn bonsai with a couple of 10 minute sessions with someone. They don't have near the knowledge to know what they don't know. It's "cool" so they want to "get into it" . Then to, is the art aspect. I might step on some toes, but the craft of bonsai can be learned. The art of designing and pruning a tree cannot. I've found that some people don't have that creative gene. If they do, it can be improved, but I've seen people that have no sense of proportion or style. If you have no concept of what looks good, how can you make a work of art?

 

[badatusernames]

I think intimidation is a large unspoken obstacle in bonsai, as it is in learning any new sport/activity/hobby.

I used to teach skiing a very very long time ago.
Lots of beginners had it firmly in their minds "not to fall" on their first lesson--some perceived falling as some kind of idiot move that marked them as uncool. Others were afraid of getting hurt. Falling on your first lesson--or fifth, or as an instructor, is part of the activity. It happens to everyone. Fearing it can add to the damage.

I learned that folks either learned to laugh at that fear and manage it, or they never really got over the perceived indignity of falling and quit. BTW, some even said falling was MY fault for not teaching well enough--never mind all that complicated gravity/physics stuff. I learned the best students weren't all that afraid of falling or making a fool of themselves, if it meant they actually learned how to ski. They learned HOW to fall to avoid injuries...I also saw people who were overly intimidated and scared of what they were doing get some fairly bad injuries fighting a fall. I also saw those who were overconfident of their capabilities, or dismissive of the challenges of advanced terrain and instruction, get badly injured too.

Take from this what you will, but being intimidated CAN be an impediment. It can also be a tool. Don't let it stop you. Learn how to fall with some style and understand why you did.

skiing and snowboarding are why I’ve been run over twice and been fine, once t-boned by a Silverado

the trick is to be going really fast and know how to fall, if you get t-boned by a truck while standing still you’re screwed, but on a bike going 20mph the forces kinda redistribute and you can kinda tuck and roll lol

only broke a collarbone so far, the BMW was in far worse condition! So yes, I agree with you on the value of being willing to fall!

 

[Shogun610]

like a dr. Seuss wet dream.

There’s a quote , that’s a quote.

 

[rockm]

yeah, I’m going to give local clubs another effort for sure. I feel like I basically wandered in to a couple, didn’t know what to say, and then emailed some literal bonsai masters, me being oblivious to the scope of the bonsai scene in America, like “Hey wanna hang out” when it didn’t work right away

Anyways if anyone was wondering, Suthin does not want to hang out

Well, umm, take a step back. Instead of asking if (local, national) experts want to "hang out," ask them (particularly if they're local) if they need help with their trees. It's repotting season after all.

Asking if any professional if they want to "hang out" is a dead end. You wind up looking like a thousand others who want something from them for free. You ask your doctor if he/she wants to hang out and talk about your shoulder injury?

Asking a local if you can come over (after attending some club meetings, etc.) and have a look at their trees is a good path to follow. Have had several folks from clubs and here do that with me. Had them over, got some free help with repotting, even sold off (or gave away) some excess trees.

Trick is not 'wandering in' and around a bonsai meeting. Not going to learn much of anything by wandering. If you want to strike up a conversation, ask members about their trees--what kind of trees do you like, how many do you have, where can I get good material...etc. Just start a conversation...Most members will talk freely, sometimes TOO much. Others, well, every club has an asshole or two. If you run into a non-communicative snob move on. Also don't forget that bonsaiists (even if they have spectacular trees) are human. Some are not extroverts. Like any social situation, learn to work the room.

 

[Shogun610]

I agree w what @rockm and others are saying about intimidation… When I started learning I was treated like who the hell is this dude and now I’m trusted more by my teacher and fellow apprentices , even at Club meeting you have people who’ve been doing Bonsai for years and years, then some new kid shows up talking your ear off. So I felt that but at the same time I’m fine with it , I get it. The one thing I’d say is , having networked and still networking within Bonsai has benefited. It’s great to make friends in a different generation and ones in yours because us younger people are going to the ones that carry this passion on for future generations no matter what the reach (here, clubs, shows, social media, some degree of professional avenue). If you’re legit then others will respect that and see that you’re not trying to extract free knowledge from them and convey you’re serious about Bonsai… doesn’t happen overnight..And after working w a person who studied in Japan and meeting other professionals who studied under professionals here in the US, or even made a name by collecting .. it is possible to break out .. but the point is to work with others your age and older to learn from and earn that respect. And don’t be afraid to reach out to people on here and connect , I’ve done it.

 

[MaciekA]

As someone who has read (and tried to answer) literally hundreds upon hundreds of beginner posts per week on reddit for the last few years, the above "it's the real estate market" comment gets very close to one of the biggest impediments for beginners, which is that the number of people who want to grow bonsai is likely much larger than the number of people who have stable access to a direct outdoor sun exposure. That set shrinks even more if you account for continuity of care, even more if you reduce the set according to climate factors.

This like one of those Google interview estimate-the-number-of-piano-tuners-in-Manhattan questions:

• Describe a method to estimate the total number of individuals in the United States (or your country) who can grow a healthy vigorous pine for bonsai
• Use any data sources you want -- zillow, good maps, climate data, expedia, labor statistics, whatever you want
• Bonus points given if theft risk taken into account
• Bonus points given if propensity of vacation-taking (aka survival discontinuities) and career / lifestyle factors are taken into account

IMO that's just a taste of the factors that can decide whether bonsai is even right for someone in the first place.

Aside from real estate, I think the following are the biggest impediments to beginner success in no particular order:

• Extremely low quality information gets to beginners first
• Prevalence of indoor growing and the infernal seed kits
• Prevalence of potting soil and inavailability of volcanic particles in certain parts of the country except at great cost
• Beginner gets stuck in advice quicksand / defensive / conspiratorial thinking: (Western?) cultural propensity to defend ones mistaken beliefs / defend low quality information sources / take good-faith advice personally. After a couple bad interactions (see next point below), beginners start to believe there is a "snobby elite" that uses "hipster soil" and has rigid "rules" (when the opposite is true, long time bonsai growers are humbled by the depth and nuances of bonsai as time goes by). These are incredibly unhelpful thoughts to have as a beginner if one is to ever grow good, horticulturally-sound bonsai, regardless of whether alternative particles exist or method A or method B is better or any of that noise. It's just a childish disinterested mindset. Bonsai demands a humble student, a voracious information omnivore.
• Cultural propensity / low emotional IQ of existing experts / practitioners, especially online, to beat on / berate beginners rather than give gentle / positive encouragement in the spirit of "yes and", "not bad so far! next time try X". If every single bonsai expert on the internet had rule #1 as "respect/defend the dignity of the beginner no matter what", you'd have a huge increase in success and people sticking with it.

For the last two points, consider the VAST difference in outcomes between a beginner that gets welcomed to the hobby via a smiling helpful large group of people in a club like BSOP or a no-questions-are-bad beginners-welcome thread .... Versus someone that buys a mallsai, gets some snarky comments about it, watches a Herons video, then tries their hand at slip potting/pruning/wiring an alberta spruce all in one go, then gets snark from someone on a reddit or bnut post, and bails out of the hobby forever after it dies.

Lots of other factors, but bad information, realities of grow space / supply, and a sometimes brutal "edu-cultural slope" are the big ones I have observed. If only bonsai itself was all they were grappling with!

 

[Potato with leaves]

It takes a great deal of courage to be willing to "suck at something new." I struggle with it all the time. Encouragement, encouragement, encouragement!