How to tell a tree collected in autumn has survived?

[BobbyLane]

the main thing he needs to keep in mind, at any time. is the amount of root, the size of the root ball. even if he collects in spring. that is my advice to him.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Hehe...yeah, I'm with you all the way! Every so often I try to do a better job at record keeping but then I remember growing things is a hobby for me and not a career. Sometimes (often!) I do stupid things I know are high risk but I always think through the situation first and at least calculate the risks. When I am reluctant to loose the tree, I go more conservative...

If you get that few 90F days, you must be further north than I thought! I lived in Villa Park about 6 blocks from Orchids by Hausermann for a number of years. Then we moved further south to near Bloomington for 10 years before coming out here to KC. I worked a mile or so away from Hidden Garden Nursery for just over 20 years. I remember a lot more 90F+ days! Not nearly as many as here in KC, but more than 10! The lower humidity there does let the nights cool off much nicer than here though!

I, personally, seem to have the best success repotting just after summer breaks and the fall cool down starts. Basically just before the fall flush. I've yet to loose an oak potted after the second week of August. I have lost a few repotting in the spring. Very likely mistakes on my part by either repotting too early or being too aggressive. I had a great (in my opinion anyway) bald cypress that I was going to start training as a flat top that I lost this past spring. I have lost a lot of trees in the after summer as well...but that's why I asked if you had actual data. A lot of your discussions here are well researched so I thought maybe you did All my data is anecdotal but does run counter to many of the suggestions on this site. But I look at it as a risk/reward game. The more dear a tree is to me, the closer to convention (conservative) I tend to be so the more tragedies stand out and skew my gut feelings

I live about a mile and a half from Lake Michigan, with no high rise buildings between me and "da Lake". Only a mile of single family homes between me an Illinois Beach State Park. So I have strong "Lake Effect". My home does not have central air conditioning, and I don't bother with room air conditioners. Don't really need them. "da Lake" does the job most years, most of the time. The family owned farm in Michigan is 9 miles east of "da Lake" which puts it inside the "Lake Effect" zone when the prevailing westerly winds are blowing. Only time the farm gets hot is when the wind is from the east and or southeast. Fairly rare in summer there.

 

[roberthu]

I actually plan to do some digging from a local grower this late fall/early winter. I bought heat mat for it because after watching Ryan explain winter care in one of the videos, I feel more confident about repotting trees in winter. He said if we could provide adequate temperature to the root area during winter and the trees were strong before repotting, the trees’ roots will continue to grow during winter and be ready for spring. Another key is to keep the top of trees unheated so they remain dormant from soil up. It does consume a substantial amount of energy the trees stored prior to repot so the trees have to be very strong and we should not do this every year.
Our winter here isn’t terribly cold and with the help of heating mats, I think I will have a pretty good chance of success. Either way, I will be posting my process and results when spring comes.

 

[leatherback]

I am off to a big dealer in Belgium tomorrow to pick up 40 field-grown ittoigawas. THey have been dug from the field the last few days. WIll semi-bare-root them and pot them afterwards.

Most trees do fine.

 

[roberthu]

I am off to a big dealer in Belgium tomorrow to pick up 40 field-grown ittoigawas. THey have been dug from the field the last few days. WIll semi-bare-root them and pot them afterwards.

Most trees do fine.

Yeah I think the aftercare is the key. Not when to dig.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Ok. I agree with y’all in regards to:
-collect a lot of roots. Don’t dig the tree out thinking, “ok it’s going in a 6x8” bonsai pot, so I’m gunna dig out a 6”x8” root ball.”
Dig big.
After care! - give the tree the best possible environment to recover.
BUT,
Is it possible to tell if a collect tree -in fall- or any season, is going to survive without waiting at least a couple seasons?
I would say no. Wait and see.

 

[Zach Smith]

It doesn't take a couple of seasons to find out if a tree is going to make it. You can judge a tree's strength by how it grows in the first season. Look for strong shoot extension. That tells you your roots are doing well. Very reliable way to tell all is well.

 

[leatherback]

Is it possible to tell if a collect tree -in fall- or any season, is going to survive without waiting at least a couple seasons?

As mentioned before. A deciduous tree that is showing wrinkled branches and where the buds loose their shine or even start to drop off, will most likely not make it. EVergreens where the heart of clusters of needles turnbrown or that go yellow often are not going to make it.

 

[MaciekA]

I've dug trees in late summer into early autumn- 60% success.
late autumn - 75% success.

I have found a somewhat similar success rate (~75%) for collecting in the start of November in the Oregon Cascades (zones 7 thru 5) and then recovering at where I live in the Willamette Valley (zone 8).

Do you have any thoughts on climate and timing as it pertains to success rate? Do you collect and recover in the same zone? Is the soil quite moist in your collecting locations in the late autumn?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have never collected outside my immediate climate zone.

Your local climate and how the trees respond to it is the ONLY thing that determines the calendar of when to collect. The phase the tree in the ground is in should drive the decision to collect or not collect.

If collecting from a warmer area, and bringing it to a colder area, requires better aftercare. Collecting from a cold area and bringing the tree to a warmer area usually has fewer problems.

I'm in zone 5b and the farm I collect from is in zone 6a, our timing will be very different than your zone 8.

 

[Tieball]

I think you should just ask a Magic Eight Ball.

 

[AJL]

If it is stressed, as in having been collected, re-potted, root pruned etc, it is going to drop leaves. You will not know until spring if it made it. You probably should not be attempting collecting in the fall. Even the pros can have problem with that.

Yes that may be the case where you live but how come most commercial wholesale nurseries lift their trees bare rooted in autumn for winter planting in Europe and Britain?!! Provided you lift after leaf fall the tree should survive if the roots dont get frozen!! I cant see why USA should be that different?

 

[leatherback]

Yes that may be the case where you live but how come most commercial wholesale nurseries lift their trees bare rooted in autumn for winter planting in Europe and Britain?!! Provided you lift after leaf fall the tree should survive if the roots dont get frozen!! I cant see why USA should be that different?

Trees in nurseries are prepared for transplanting by undercutting the roots every few years. As such, they have feeders close to the trunk. Trees that grew in a forest for a few decades to not. Makes a very different collection.

 

[MaciekA]

Trees in nurseries are prepared for transplanting by undercutting the roots every few years. As such, they have feeders close to the trunk. Trees that grew in a forest for a few decades to not. Makes a very different collection.

Pretty much this ^

What's nice for developing a personal intuition or ruleset around this is that what you have said applies to basically all repotting, with yamadori often being the most egregious offenders with regards to the lack of feeder roots close to the base of the trunk.

I think this is the biggest difference between "field grown" and "wild grown", and also accounts for why successful field growers like Telperion and others have repeated the commercial nursery techniques you mention in your comment above -- trimming roots often, using in-ground grow bags, etc.

 

[Pitoon]

Scratch and sniff.........it always works..........for all kinds of things!

 

[Gabler]

The

Just going to throw this out as an anecdote... something to think about even though it certainly doesn't "prove" anything.

On our property in Illinois (when I was a child) my parents would often take trees from the woods to plant around our house. My mother always made us do this after the leaves had fallen - but before the hard freeze. We would go out early, tag the trees we wanted, wait for a couple of months, and go dig them up and relocate them. We would plant them in the ground then - in the fall - and in the spring they never failed to burst forth with healthy growth. I never thought or worried about it at the time, but in retrospect Illinois has harsh winters and I wonder that some of them didn't die. But they didn't.

The best time for transplanting trees IN THE GROUND is between the leaf drop and first frost. IN POTS, you have to worry about the roots freezing, so the tree is subject to more stress over the winter.

 

[Waldo Street Pottery]

In addition to the good info above- There’s always the scratch test... scratch a small section of the trunk or branch to the cambium layer and if it shows green that’s usually a good sign. If it shows brown/Grey you may have lost that section or branch...

 

[GreatLakesBrad]

Just tossing in that for some specific species, this mileage could vary. Nick Lenz recommends collecting bog larch in the fall. I’m comparing experiences before making a determination on what is best for my climate. But I tend to trust Nick on the topic.

 

[leatherback]

Take a deep breath, we don't want to lose you.

Yet we did, it seems..