How to tell a tree collected in autumn has survived?

[One First Matter All]

Am I reading this clearly?

@penumbra , first off, I like your name. Second, no, you are not reading this clearly. I am not asking anyone to go anywhere. I am asking one individual to refrain from commenting on my posts if he cannot do so respectfully. It's a simple ask, one that does not impinge upon anyone else or fundamentally alter the nature or purpose of the forum.

Your claim that you "have been there as have many many others" makes this site sound like some sort of cult, whose process of initiation I must accept and endure. If this is a cult, well . . . tell me more . Er, wait. I misspoke! If it's a cult (or, more aptly, a frat), I want nothing to do with it. As much as I enjoy getting a lashing from the church elders, I can find better venues for that sort of thing. I don't get the impression that this process of initiation is inbuilt to the BonsaiNut culture, as evidenced by your own admission that you "have found a few very valuable people here to be a bit blunt at times." If so few of the valuable people engage in blunt, disrespectful speech, then why tolerate it? Clearly they're in the minority. At the very least, I should be able to ask that such "blunt" people kindly avoid my posts, especially since by using the site we are "granting [the owner] with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service." If I'm going to sign away my rights to the content, I should at least have some modicum of control over how it appears, no?

 

[penumbra]

@penumbra , first off, I like your name. Second, no, you are not reading this clearly. I am not asking anyone to go anywhere. I am asking one individual to refrain from commenting on my posts if he cannot do so respectfully. It's a simple ask, one that does not impinge upon anyone else or fundamentally alter the nature or purpose of the forum.

Your claim that you "have been there as have many many others" makes this site sound like some sort of cult, whose process of initiation I must accept and endure. If this is a cult, well . . . tell me more . Er, wait. I misspoke! If it's a cult (or, more aptly, a frat), I want nothing to do with it. As much as I enjoy getting a lashing from the church elders, I can find better venues for that sort of thing. I don't get the impression that this process of initiation is inbuilt to the BonsaiNut culture, as evidenced by your own admission that you "have found a few very valuable people here to be a bit blunt at times." If so few of the valuable people engage in blunt, disrespectful speech, then why tolerate it? Clearly they're in the minority. At the very least, I should be able to ask that such "blunt" people kindly avoid my posts, especially since by using the site we are "granting [the owner] with a non-exclusive, permanent, irrevocable, unlimited license to use, publish, or re-publish your Content in connection with the Service." If I'm going to sign away my rights to the content, I should at least have some modicum of control over how it appears, no?

Thanks, it is a name that works for me.
Case in point, too much talking and not enough listening.
You are becoming wearisome.
You are allaying the feeling that it is all about you.
I'm done here.

 

[One First Matter All]

Thanks, it is a name that works for me.
Case in point, too much talking and not enough listening.
You are becoming wearisome.
You are allaying the feeling that it is all about you.
I'm done here.

Sorry to weary you!

 

[rockm]

[

Nah, not triggered in the least. Let's be real for a second. This is a forum where people--mostly men, it seems--come to talk about little trees. To get "triggered" here would be the height of insecurity, I should think. As to what he said, I did think quite a lot about it--enough to do more research on the subject, in fact. Maybe you assume I was insincere when I said I appreciate his comments?

As to the advice given, some of it was relevant, but much of it was not. If you'll go back to my original post and @rockm 's original comment, you'll find that his very first comment falls under the category of "unsolicited advice"--his statement that I should not collect in fall had nothing to do with my question about how to tell if a tree has died.

As to forums, I am not willing to trade civil discourse to gain the "valuable" information of which you speak, especially when that same information can be acquired from equally talented people but without the browbeating. To be clear, I am not asking him or the forum to change; I am merely asking him to refrain from commenting on my posts if he finds himself unable to accommodate my very modest request--a request, I should add, that followed numerous requests from him about how I should do bonsai. Seems like a small "ask," no?

The forum doesn't have to change. We don't have to do anything. If you don't want to see my comments, familiarize your bad self with the "ignore" function.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Just do it. Dig em now and see what happens.
Experience experience.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I've dug trees in late winter & early spring - 85% to 90% success, meaning still alive 24 months later.

I've dug trees in late spring and early summer - 25% success at best. This is success greater than zero, but it is not a high level of success.

I've dug trees in late summer into early autumn- 60% success.
late autumn - 75% success.

Clearly my best success is in late winter early spring.

This is just me, with my medium quality after care.

You really don't know how successful a tree collection was until the second year. If still alive after 24 months, then you can be fully confident that if it dies later, it was not because of what you did when collecting it.

Collect when you want, and when convenient. Accept that some seasons will have a higher, or lower success rate than others.

I've collected a lot of elms, that is part of the reason my late spring and early summer success is as high as it is, elms are the most resilient of all the species to collect. But I have collected many other species too.

 

[LittleDingus]

I've dug trees in late winter & early spring - 85% to 90% success, meaning still alive 24 months later.

I've dug trees in late spring and early summer - 25% success at best. This is success greater than zero, but it is not a high level of success.

I've dug trees in late summer into early autumn- 60% success.
late autumn - 75% success.

Clearly my best success is in late winter early spring.

This is just me, with my medium quality after care.

You really don't know how successful a tree collection was until the second year. If still alive after 24 months, then you can be fully confident that if it dies later, it was not because of what you did when collecting it.

Collect when you want, and when convenient. Accept that some seasons will have a higher, or lower success rate than others.

I've collected a lot of elms, that is part of the reason my late spring and early summer success is as high as it is, elms are the most resilient of all the species to collect. But I have collected many other species too.

I'm curious @Leo in N E Illinois, when you make these statements about percentages are they from data you keep or are they anecdotal?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything! I do find that sometimes people cite numbers that back up their point of view without really looking at the data. Humans or funny that way Most posters on this forum are not scientists and don't follow scientific rigor...which is perfectly fine! I figure since you tend to post references and speak from a more structured point of view that maybe you do keep this data?

The reason I ask is not that I'm looking to collect, but I tend to shy away from early spring repotting. Some of my favorite trees were killed by early spring repots. It feels to me like I kill many fewer trees with early autumn repots. I haven't keep good records myself But my experience inclines me to say repot in early fall because I kill less trees then! In reality, I probably kill more trees then, just ones I'm not as attached to. I get bored in the fall and just do things sometimes...usually on my more expendable stock. But I tend to follow the guidelines more closely on my "prime" stock. And I tend to feel it more when my prime stock dies

Anyway, just curious...

 

[One First Matter All]

I've collected a lot of elms, that is part of the reason my late spring and early summer success is as high as it is, elms are the most resilient of all the species to collect. But I have collected many other species too.

Thanks, @Leo in N E Illinois . It just so happens the tree in question is . . . an elm! It's nothing spectacular to look at. However, it will be good practice if it lives.

 

[leatherback]

Most posters on this forum are not scientists

a surprisingly high number of them is!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I'm curious @Leo in N E Illinois, when you make these statements about percentages are they from data you keep or are they anecdotal?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything! I do find that sometimes people cite numbers that back up their point of view without really looking at the data. Humans or funny that way Most posters on this forum are not scientists and don't follow scientific rigor...which is perfectly fine! I figure since you tend to post references and speak from a more structured point of view that maybe you do keep this data?

The reason I ask is not that I'm looking to collect, but I tend to shy away from early spring repotting. Some of my favorite trees were killed by early spring repots. It feels to me like I kill many fewer trees with early autumn repots. I haven't keep good records myself But my experience inclines me to say repot in early fall because I kill less trees then! In reality, I probably kill more trees then, just ones I'm not as attached to. I get bored in the fall and just do things sometimes...usually on my more expendable stock. But I tend to follow the guidelines more closely on my "prime" stock. And I tend to feel it more when my prime stock dies

Anyway, just curious...

LOL, busted. Well, "sort of" busted.

In that particular case the numbers are anecdotal, based on my perception of my recollection of my success-fail rate. My record keeping is haphazard, though there was a time when I kept a tight inventory, and could tell you the exact date each and every collected stick in a pot was collected and the date I determined it died or was sold if it was no longer with me. Then I friend of mine pointed out how much time I was putting into record keeping, versus actually growing and enjoying my trees, and my records became more haphazard. Today I grow plants, rather than keep records about the plants I grow.

But the numbers approximate my recollection of success rates. And as often said, "individual mileage will vary".

I too have had many issues with spring repotting. You are in Kansas City, your climate is more like mine than many others on this forum. I'll tell you 2 secrets. First, I experimented and do much more repotting during summer, especially with conifers. Second, I quit repotting trees so often. Now I try to let trees go 5 years or more between repotting.

I was promoting summer repotting, in fact I turned Sorce onto the idea. For us, in our climate, it works fairly well. BUT I quit promoting summer repotting because MOST new to bonsai just did not understand the effects of local climate. If you live in the central valley in California, or in the desert areas of Texas or many other Hot & Dry Summer areas, you would be an IDIOT to repot in middle of summer. But where I live, & Sorce lives, we get fewer than 10 days per year over 90F. Often we have only 1 or 2 days over 90 F. In 2018 & 2019 I had zero days over 90 F at the farm in SW Michigan. In areas with relatively cool summers, repotting a week or two after the summer solstice through, up to about Sept 15 is not a bad thing for most conifers and some deciduous.

But because SO MANY people from climates wildly different than mine kept trying summer repotting based on my "say so" and were killing trees, I have backed off recommending summer repotting. It does not work everywhere. You need to experiment in your own climate. Start with conifers. Expand to others with caution. I do repot Chaenomeles (flowering quince) and Diospyros (persimmon) during late summer, early autumn. So if you are not my next door neighbor, I'd would tell you repot in spring. Also, anything I repot in summer usually gets temperature protection in winter, I use a well house that does not get significantly colder than 32 F or 0 C.

 

[LittleDingus]

LOL, busted. Well, "sort of" busted.

In that particular case the numbers are anecdotal, based on my perception of my recollection of my success-fail rate. My record keeping is haphazard, though there was a time when I kept a tight inventory, and could tell you the exact date each and every collected stick in a pot was collected and the date I determined it died or was sold if it was no longer with me. Then I friend of mine pointed out how much time I was putting into record keeping, versus actually growing and enjoying my trees, and my records became more haphazard. Today I grow plants, rather than keep records about the plants I grow.

But the numbers approximate my recollection of success rates. And as often said, "individual mileage will vary".

I too have had many issues with spring repotting. You are in Kansas City, your climate is more like mine than many others on this forum. I'll tell you 2 secrets. First, I experimented and do much more repotting during summer, especially with conifers. Second, I quit repotting trees so often. Now I try to let trees go 5 years or more between repotting.

I was promoting summer repotting, in fact I turned Sorce onto the idea. For us, in our climate, it works fairly well. BUT I quit promoting summer repotting because MOST new to bonsai just did not understand the effects of local climate. If you live in the central valley in California, or in the desert areas of Texas or many other Hot & Dry Summer areas, you would be an IDIOT to repot in middle of summer. But where I live, & Sorce lives, we get fewer than 10 days per year over 90F. Often we have only 1 or 2 days over 90 F. In 2018 & 2019 I had zero days over 90 F at the farm in SW Michigan. In areas with relatively cool summers, repotting a week or two after the summer solstice through, up to about Sept 15 is not a bad thing for most conifers and some deciduous.

But because SO MANY people from climates wildly different than mine kept trying summer repotting based on my "say so" and were killing trees, I have backed off recommending summer repotting. It does not work everywhere. You need to experiment in your own climate. Start with conifers. Expand to others with caution. I do repot Chaenomeles (flowering quince) and Diospyros (persimmon) during late summer, early autumn. So if you are not my next door neighbor, I'd would tell you repot in spring. Also, anything I repot in summer usually gets temperature protection in winter, I use a well house that does not get significantly colder than 32 F or 0 C.

Hehe...yeah, I'm with you all the way! Every so often I try to do a better job at record keeping but then I remember growing things is a hobby for me and not a career. Sometimes (often!) I do stupid things I know are high risk but I always think through the situation first and at least calculate the risks. When I am reluctant to loose the tree, I go more conservative...

If you get that few 90F days, you must be further north than I thought! I lived in Villa Park about 6 blocks from Orchids by Hausermann for a number of years. Then we moved further south to near Bloomington for 10 years before coming out here to KC. I worked a mile or so away from Hidden Garden Nursery for just over 20 years. I remember a lot more 90F+ days! Not nearly as many as here in KC, but more than 10! The lower humidity there does let the nights cool off much nicer than here though!

I, personally, seem to have the best success repotting just after summer breaks and the fall cool down starts. Basically just before the fall flush. I've yet to loose an oak potted after the second week of August. I have lost a few repotting in the spring. Very likely mistakes on my part by either repotting too early or being too aggressive. I had a great (in my opinion anyway) bald cypress that I was going to start training as a flat top that I lost this past spring. I have lost a lot of trees in the after summer as well...but that's why I asked if you had actual data. A lot of your discussions here are well researched so I thought maybe you did All my data is anecdotal but does run counter to many of the suggestions on this site. But I look at it as a risk/reward game. The more dear a tree is to me, the closer to convention (conservative) I tend to be so the more tragedies stand out and skew my gut feelings

 

[mapleX]

The answer is simple, when is there a greater chance that the tree will live the trauma of extraction? Spring or fall? If even so and despite the advice you decide to do it at the most unfavorable moment then you do not care about the life of the tree, you do it only for you ... bonsai is about the tree, not about us.

On the other hand, do it also in spring for you, it is very discouraging, believe me, to see how a tree dies due to our negligence and it could affect you to the point of thinking about abandoning the bonsai activity.

I hope you don't bother with my comments.

 

[leatherback]

It does not work everywhere.

I think this is true, and true for MOST things bonsai. Local climate & the actualy weather in the period you do the work (Not every summer is humid and cool!) dictates what works and what not

The answer is simple, when is there a greater chance that the tree will live the trauma of extraction? Spring or fall?

This is a simple question but impossible to answer "generically".
If I look at the last 3 years, I have lost a tree each spring after repot. We have seen the weather jump from frost in late march, to hot dry spring a week later, and no rain for weeks on end. Soil drying out 2 inches deep within a week. Enough to dry out every repot with aggressive rootwork. Considering our normal spring weather with rains every other day, strong rootwork in spring normally works well. Not so much the last few years.

 

[BobbyLane]

In the UK if you said to a nursery owner, ok you guys are not allowed to dig trees up between oct-apr anymore, this bareroot season must stop. many would be out of business.

 

[BobbyLane]

the advantage that the nursery industry have is that they go in with mechanical diggers and rip these trees out of the ground, this happens between oct-apr. most are usually sold and replanted during this period. with a rootball this size i would say chance of survival is 100% at any time of the year.
often ive just chopped these trunks low and took the rootball home with me, shook off all the soil and im left with an over abundant amount to choose from. i know what these trees can take so after ive done my reductions they usually go into a container with enough root to power the tree forward.

ive mostly had problems with beech when the nursery has allowed me to go into the field and dig the tree up myself, i never get enough root, in regards to beech they send out long deep roots which ive had problems with.
thats the real issue most inexperienced collectors face. they never get enough root!

 

[mapleX]

In the UK if you said to a nursery owner, ok you guys are not allowed to dig trees up between oct-apr anymore, this bareroot season must stop. many would be out of business.

The author of the post is an amateur, like many here, and the question is not from a business perspective, where a percentage of loss in the collection of the material can be allowed.

What is the urgency? My advice is to wait for the most favorable season for the sake of the tree first and then also for the personal enjoyment of a successful job

 

[BobbyLane]

do what you think is best for you and your trees mate.
ive not logged any significant loss of vigour from doing root work whenever i feel like it.
for me there isnt a 'best' time. just a time when i want to do it. and as i say there is a successful industry built on doing this at other times.
i re pot in spring too but im not one of these guys who is just doing it because its the norm and everybody told me to

if you said to an avid landscaper that he shouldnt transplant his trees until bud burst he would laugh at you.

 

[BobbyLane]

My advice is to wait for the most favorable season for the sake of the tree first and then also for the personal enjoyment of a successful job

i have great success re potting anytime i want to. im just sayin. in re to the OP. as i said, most failures come from the lack of root collected by novice collectors. im guilty of this, i suck at collecting but then again ive not had many opportunities. what i showed above, is a fine example of the kind of root ball that is required and most get far, far less.

but ive re potted countless trees from nursery stock.

 

[BobbyLane]

How to tell a tree collected in autumn has survived?

COLLECT IT WITH ENOUGH ROOT TO SUSTAIN IT! how do you even know how much is enough you may ask? EXPERIENCE! you do enough and overtime you begin to understand the 'threshold' so indeed your first might be a failure, thats fine mate, just keep calm and carry on. keep plucking away.

moral of the story is. its not the timing. its the amount of root you have that will keep the tree alive. i believe this to be facts and can't be convinced otherwise. have a good day

 

[mapleX]

if you said to an avid landscaper that he shouldnt transplant his trees until bud burst he would laugh at you.

My advice is directed to the author of the post, not to you.

Apparently you have plenty of experience but the person who started this publication is not an "avid gardener" as you assume, keep this in mind.