Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Always the case. And from your photos above, yes you can prune to the areas you circled. Just don't prune away more than 1/3 of the total foliage, and do expect juvenile foliage again this year.
How to Deal with Leggy Itoigawa Juniper
- Thread starter AndyJ
- Start date
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Here are two examples of how to prune back an itoigawa.
nebaribonsai.wordpress.com
nebaribonsai.wordpress.com
Itoigawa Trimming
This tree was tidied up for the Alabama club show in May, and left to grow until mid-August, when I trimmed it up again in preparation for the fall growth spurt. Look at those strong runners. Left …
nebaribonsai.wordpress.com
Itoigawa Shimpaku summer work
I last wired this one 2 years ago, and the wire was digging in. It had also gotten fairly dense, and as is the case, weak areas got weaker, and strong areas got stronger. So this work was to remove…
nebaribonsai.wordpress.com
AndyJ
Shohin
Brilliant links @Brian Van Fleet - so clear to see in pictures! I was surprised to see how much you cut off in the Shimpaku summer work - did you not get juvenile foliage after this?Here are two examples of how to prune back an itoigawa.
Itoigawa Trimming
This tree was tidied up for the Alabama club show in May, and left to grow until mid-August, when I trimmed it up again in preparation for the fall growth spurt. Look at those strong runners. Left …Itoigawa Shimpaku summer work
I last wired this one 2 years ago, and the wire was digging in. It had also gotten fairly dense, and as is the case, weak areas got weaker, and strong areas got stronger. So this work was to remove…
OK, I’ll get those sections cut back to the circled areas. And then I’ll prune and wire as @River's Edge suggested, then repot into a small container and see what I end up with. One final question, when I’ve peered inside the canopy, there appear to be quite a few bar branches - should I be looking at removing these now too? They are all quite thin branches - mainly near the top.
Thanks again for the help - much appreciated.
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
No juvenile foliage, I didn’t remove too much, just around 1/3.
misfit11
Omono
Great thread with some great info from some of our more experienced members! Thanks, Andy, for asking great questions with detailed photos. Thanks also to Brian, Frank, and Adair for providing some amazing information.
AndyJ
Shohin
Heres a few more images of my juniper - this time after I’ve done some work on it.
I removed about 30% of the foliage (I was quite shocked at how dense it was on the inside.) I cut off the leggy growth on the front branch to expose the new growth, it’s a mix of scale and juvenile foliage and I wired a few branches for structure and to let some light in. I picked out the shari to define it some more and applied lime sulphur on this and the jins. I’m expecting quite a lot of juvenile foliage now ... It’s still scruffy looking but I hope it’s getting there!
Final task was to pot it up into a Yixing pot. There wasn’t a lot of root growth and quite a lot of what was there was rotten so by the time I’d trimmed it all off, the rootball fitted into the Yixing quite easily. I hope the repot, the cutback and the wiring hasn’t stressed it too much!
I removed about 30% of the foliage (I was quite shocked at how dense it was on the inside.) I cut off the leggy growth on the front branch to expose the new growth, it’s a mix of scale and juvenile foliage and I wired a few branches for structure and to let some light in. I picked out the shari to define it some more and applied lime sulphur on this and the jins. I’m expecting quite a lot of juvenile foliage now ... It’s still scruffy looking but I hope it’s getting there!
Final task was to pot it up into a Yixing pot. There wasn’t a lot of root growth and quite a lot of what was there was rotten so by the time I’d trimmed it all off, the rootball fitted into the Yixing quite easily. I hope the repot, the cutback and the wiring hasn’t stressed it too much!
AndyJ
Shohin
Hi folks.
Struggled out to my bonsai bench this morning to have a look at my shohin Itoigawa. Have to say, I’m a little disappointed - the tree looks a bit odd now and a long way away from what a decent Itoigawa should look like!
There’s a bit of juvenile foliage and a lot of browning of some of the needles and the thin branches. Is this what I should expect as a result of what I did last year / this spring with regards pruning and repotting? Or should I have done something between spring and now.
Not great pictures I’m afraid.
Struggled out to my bonsai bench this morning to have a look at my shohin Itoigawa. Have to say, I’m a little disappointed - the tree looks a bit odd now and a long way away from what a decent Itoigawa should look like!
There’s a bit of juvenile foliage and a lot of browning of some of the needles and the thin branches. Is this what I should expect as a result of what I did last year / this spring with regards pruning and repotting? Or should I have done something between spring and now.
Not great pictures I’m afraid.
AndyJ
Shohin
Any help or advice folks?
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
You've done a lot of work to it in a short span of time. The tree is getting used to what has happened to it. Stronger areas may be getting weaker, new growth is popping out where no new growth was before, etc. The good news is that the tree is alive and strong.
Sometimes when one of your trees is weak (for one reason or other) the best course of action is to leave it alone for a season to regain strength. When you do, they get shaggy with leggy growth and look disheveled. You just need to pick up your scissors and work the tree and it will return to great shape.
I think your biggest challenge it that you don't really know how to structurally prune yet. You've left too much on in some areas, and the growth is clumpy and uneven. Now that your tree is recovered, you will want to start pushing back the growth that is too long, while opening up the branchlets that look like pom-poms. Eliminate any growth that points straight up or straight down, and try to reduce branches at any junction to no more than two. If you keep the tree maintained and open to let light and air into the interior, the foliage will start to fill in and look tight and compact.
Also - make sure it gets as much sun as possible. The tree is saying "I've gotten a ton of rain this year!"
Sometimes when one of your trees is weak (for one reason or other) the best course of action is to leave it alone for a season to regain strength. When you do, they get shaggy with leggy growth and look disheveled. You just need to pick up your scissors and work the tree and it will return to great shape.
I think your biggest challenge it that you don't really know how to structurally prune yet. You've left too much on in some areas, and the growth is clumpy and uneven. Now that your tree is recovered, you will want to start pushing back the growth that is too long, while opening up the branchlets that look like pom-poms. Eliminate any growth that points straight up or straight down, and try to reduce branches at any junction to no more than two. If you keep the tree maintained and open to let light and air into the interior, the foliage will start to fill in and look tight and compact.
Also - make sure it gets as much sun as possible. The tree is saying "I've gotten a ton of rain this year!"
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Forsoothe!
Imperial Masterpiece
Scissors, and adhering to the rules of bonsai. That is, if what you want is the perfect dome that Juniper is capable of, like this...
It starts with The Rules of Bonsai: wire twigs from branches in the horizontal (fan) shape and footprint size you want. Let grow any twigs that are too short, pinch the ends of any that exceed the cloud image in your mind's eye. Maintain airspace for the birdies to fly thru between clouds. Do not allow any foliage to grow below the bottom of the branch that forms the backbone of a given cloud. Trim the tops of clouds by pinching individual needles that exceed the supposed top, or with a scissors if you have too many to do by hand. The tips will turn brow, so pinching is not done just before a show, it's done to keep a given profile and works best for a spring showing if done in the previous autumn, or in spring for showing in late summer/autumn. It takes some years to evolve from what you have until what you see here because you have to get the tree to the point where the amount of foliage tips removed in a given session is less that the amount that will result in the tree sending out immature spiky foliage. It's a volume thing. It takes enough years growing with minimal foliage reduction on any Juniper, and the more desirable species like J. c. Shimpaku doing it earlier (younger).
It starts with The Rules of Bonsai: wire twigs from branches in the horizontal (fan) shape and footprint size you want. Let grow any twigs that are too short, pinch the ends of any that exceed the cloud image in your mind's eye. Maintain airspace for the birdies to fly thru between clouds. Do not allow any foliage to grow below the bottom of the branch that forms the backbone of a given cloud. Trim the tops of clouds by pinching individual needles that exceed the supposed top, or with a scissors if you have too many to do by hand. The tips will turn brow, so pinching is not done just before a show, it's done to keep a given profile and works best for a spring showing if done in the previous autumn, or in spring for showing in late summer/autumn. It takes some years to evolve from what you have until what you see here because you have to get the tree to the point where the amount of foliage tips removed in a given session is less that the amount that will result in the tree sending out immature spiky foliage. It's a volume thing. It takes enough years growing with minimal foliage reduction on any Juniper, and the more desirable species like J. c. Shimpaku doing it earlier (younger).
AndyJ
Shohin
Thanks for your help gents. Because the tree became too long and leggy, I’m guessing the cutback I was advised to do last year was a bit of a “2 steps forward 1 step back” scenario. So do I have to wait before I do more pruning until the spiky juvenile growth is replaced by more mature growth?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
Absolutely wait.
This thread I created to help in situations like yours, a peek into the future and the value of health before beauty:
Ittoigawa juniper
This juniper has been with me a reasonable amount of time, and is sort of my ittoigawa teacher. I bought it from someone in the UK, who had it from a batch of trees imported from Japan. As he himself was moving abroad, he was selling his stock. I was planning attending a big weekend-long...
AndyJ
Shohin
Hey Leather. That link is really useful, thank you for sharing. It’s good to see your trees journey to where it is now.
The original advice I got was to cut back in order to induce some shoots closer to the trunk which I could then start training - doesn’t seem to be too much evidence of that yet. I know it’s probably “how long is a piece of string” type question, but how long might it be before I see some mature growth? While I shouldn’t prune any more branches for now, should I pinch back any runners that appear?
The original advice I got was to cut back in order to induce some shoots closer to the trunk which I could then start training - doesn’t seem to be too much evidence of that yet. I know it’s probably “how long is a piece of string” type question, but how long might it be before I see some mature growth? While I shouldn’t prune any more branches for now, should I pinch back any runners that appear?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
The runners are the sign that your tree is gaining strength. Let those run for 4+ inches before you clip any, and when you slip, trim ONLY the main brown stem. (Yes, cut into the area with side-branches). This way you give the tree first time to benefit from the runner (Which will push rootdevelopment, sapflow, general strength). Then trimming pretty much only that growing tip means the plant has not lost a lot of foliage, but all the powin in the shoot are diverted into the tuft before it, which will then create one or more new runners, often within weeks you can see the effect.
See my post on getting shaggy. That action really made the tree so much stronger and fuller. I should have done that from the start. You did a lot of work. Fertilize, water, sun. Thats is all. When it gets healthy it will statr popping backbuds. Health before beauty
Next spring push should show you very different foliage. You can see in your tree the signs of getting on top again.
green: runner & extension of rest of foliage
Red: Cut
Blue: Tuft after the cut
bwaynef
Masterpiece
If this were my tree, I'd clean it up much like normal juniper cleaning. Bottoms, crotch growth you won't cut back to, and some light thinning near the crotches. My primary concern would be to remove the dangly floppy bits. There shouldn't be any scissors necessary to complete this task. After that, make sure that everything's positioned so that it gets as much sun as possible. Any identifiably weak tips get a little help by inclining the branch ends upward.
Full sun positioning is necessary as well. If there's any location that will provide more sun for this tree, put it there.
Full sun positioning is necessary as well. If there's any location that will provide more sun for this tree, put it there.
AndyJ
Shohin
Thanks for your replies gents. @leatherback Just thinking about what you’ve said, I wonder if I made a mistake potting it into a smaller pot this spring? Would it be worth slip potting it now into something bigger to allow for good root growth which, I’m thinking, would make it stronger for next year’s spring growth?
PeaceLoveBonsai
Chumono
You’ve gotten some pretty solid advice from a couple of great contributors to this site, which would normally lead me to zip my lip. In this case, though, I’d like to offer a second opinion.
I think if you took this tree to a workshop this fall and worked with a professional, here’s what they would do (or have you do).
First, they would inspect it for health. Given what I see, it looks healthy. Growing strong, some extensions, etc.
Then they would proceed to what you might call a structural pruning. Take a look at @leatherback ‘s post, the real development starts not after the first series of work, but the second. That’s because structural pruning is mostly about setting the tree up for future success, than true aesthetics, which is what Leatherback does in 2017, quite nicely I should add.
Take this area here,
I don’t believe this area gets any better by doing nothing. No offense, but this is a mess
.
Every. Single. Limb. Must be cleaned and set up for success. Each spike of foliage must be given the appropriate space to grow and become strong. You cannot have great backbudding if your front-budding is a mess. They go hand in hand.
Then it must be wired to give light to all areas. From above, you must be able to see all the limbs. Nothing is hovering over anything.
This is Naka Bonsai Techniques 1 stuff. But it must be done first, if you want to see progress.
My final thought is this, the foliage might be garbage. Honestly, it might not be true Itiowaga. And you mentioned it’s a shohin, which requires great foliage to become a great tree. So grafting might be in your future. Better to do the work now, properly, and see if the tree responds as it should with shorter and tighter growth, than find out 3 years from now that grafting is in order.
Something you hear Ryan say and I’ve seen Bjorn do countless times and is always make the tree the absolute best it can be for that moment. Is this tree in the best place it can be for this moment? Move the tree along, don’t wait.
Do you have access to a workshop? Or a bonsai club, etc that you could get help with this tree? What is required right now for the tree is simple, but not easy.
I think if you took this tree to a workshop this fall and worked with a professional, here’s what they would do (or have you do).
First, they would inspect it for health. Given what I see, it looks healthy. Growing strong, some extensions, etc.
Then they would proceed to what you might call a structural pruning. Take a look at @leatherback ‘s post, the real development starts not after the first series of work, but the second. That’s because structural pruning is mostly about setting the tree up for future success, than true aesthetics, which is what Leatherback does in 2017, quite nicely I should add.
Take this area here,
I don’t believe this area gets any better by doing nothing. No offense, but this is a mess
.Every. Single. Limb. Must be cleaned and set up for success. Each spike of foliage must be given the appropriate space to grow and become strong. You cannot have great backbudding if your front-budding is a mess. They go hand in hand.
Then it must be wired to give light to all areas. From above, you must be able to see all the limbs. Nothing is hovering over anything.
This is Naka Bonsai Techniques 1 stuff. But it must be done first, if you want to see progress.
My final thought is this, the foliage might be garbage. Honestly, it might not be true Itiowaga. And you mentioned it’s a shohin, which requires great foliage to become a great tree. So grafting might be in your future. Better to do the work now, properly, and see if the tree responds as it should with shorter and tighter growth, than find out 3 years from now that grafting is in order.
Something you hear Ryan say and I’ve seen Bjorn do countless times and is always make the tree the absolute best it can be for that moment. Is this tree in the best place it can be for this moment? Move the tree along, don’t wait.
Do you have access to a workshop? Or a bonsai club, etc that you could get help with this tree? What is required right now for the tree is simple, but not easy.
Kadebe
Chumono
For those interested... you can still download "Bonsai Techniques I" by John Naka (in pdf) for free at the website below.
Bonsai Techniques by John Y. Naka - PDF Drive
Hartinez
Masterpiece
Loads of great advice here. I’m def sensing some hesitancy at really getting in and doing the necessary work to set the tree up long term. I’m certainly not going to chime in other than to say. @PeaceLoveBonsai makes a great point about the foliage. It does not seem to have the appearance of itoigawa. I don’t have the most trained eye ever, but it seems so far from what im used to seeing in a shimpaku variety. With as nice a trunk as this one has @PeaceLoveBonsai may be right about grafting long term. But I still think a very nice tree can be wired out of what you’ve got. Go through and reread styling advice from Brian, and other members. All the info is there.
AndyJ
Shohin
Thanks again for responses folks - much appreciated.
@Hartinez - I’m not hesitant about working on the tree at all. If you read back to Page 1, you’ll see what the tree looked like when I first posted (below for quick reference). I have received some great advice from some folks on here and I’ve been working on a plan for the tree under some guidance that @Brian Van Fleet offered
Unfortunately, I’m disabled and as a result, am housebound which is a real bummer and means I can’t attend workshops or join a club. All my bonsai help and advice comes from you good folk on here!!
@Hartinez - I’m not hesitant about working on the tree at all. If you read back to Page 1, you’ll see what the tree looked like when I first posted (below for quick reference). I have received some great advice from some folks on here and I’ve been working on a plan for the tree under some guidance that @Brian Van Fleet offered
Unfortunately, I’m disabled and as a result, am housebound which is a real bummer and means I can’t attend workshops or join a club. All my bonsai help and advice comes from you good folk on here!!
