How tall is to tall...

This is a case of being too timid and/or admiring something that really isn't worth the admiration. This is a pretty typical stock Japanese maple. Don't go all wobbly about it.

Making a decent bonsai takes some fortitude that some beginners don't have and some experienced folks never get. Get some.

Chopping stuff like this takes that kind of fortitude. Needs to be shortened to six inches. You can futz around with air layering it, which would produce pretty uninteresting straight trees that might be used in a forest group. But that takes time and effort this trunk really isn't worth.

Chop off the top, leave a eight to ten inch trunk. Wait for new buds...
 
johng said:
Ratios are really meaningless....make trees you like!
Click to expand...
Very much agreed John. Nature regularly throws mans ratios out the window. On the other hand nature and potting culture are actually very different from the another.
I'm glad I did put up this thread. By getting other ideas and perspectives from you good people here, it opened up my mind and got me thinking about other possibilities to...:)

sorce said:
Most of it is just dumb funny though!

Your seasons are different though yes?
Click to expand...

Yeah its funny but also some of your American lingo sometimes goes over my head....:confused: You need to think in African when winding me up Sorce.
Yes mate I'm in a different season than you good people up there. While you going into hibernation, I'm bouncing around singing in the sunshine...mixing soil, plant/replant, drilling holes in colanders:eek: etc. etc. ...you remember what that felt like...?

rockm said:
Chop off the top, leave a eight to ten inch trunk. Wait for new buds...
Click to expand...
That in essence is what I should be doing by this tree. Its grafted onto palmatum roots. I have been contemplating that before, but not sure how to proceed. Its 3 inches thick down there. By chopping it, will leave an awful big scar that will never heal over. It should bud well, but it will take a very long time just to get some balance between the thick trunk, and the "balanced" side branches. Any ideas on the best to pursue that way...?
 
fredman said:
Very much agreed John. Nature regularly throws mans ratios out the window. On the other hand nature and potting culture are actually very different from the another.
I'm glad I did put up this thread. By getting other ideas and perspectives from you good people here, it opened up my mind and got me thinking about other possibilities to...:)



Yeah its funny but also some of your American lingo sometimes goes over my head....:confused: You need to think in African when winding me up Sorce.
Yes mate I'm in a different season than you good people up there. While you going into hibernation, I'm bouncing around singing in the sunshine...mixing soil, plant/replant, drilling holes in colanders:eek: etc. etc. ...you remember what that felt like...?


That in essence is what I should be doing by this tree. Its grafted onto palmatum roots. I have been contemplating that before, but not sure how to proceed. Its 3 inches thick down there. By chopping it, will leave an awful big scar that will never heal over. It should bud well, but it will take a very long time just to get some balance between the thick trunk, and the "balanced" side branches. Any ideas on the best to pursue that way...?
Click to expand...

You're expecting to move ahead too quickly. Three inches isn't all that much.

Going forward--You will grow out the topmost bud into a new leader after you reduce the trunk. You let the new leader to grow until its base is a similar diameter to the trunk, then chop that leader back to an inch or so. This is how taper is built up in a bonsai-in-training over time. Given that this is a relatively young tree, growing a proper leader out will only take a season or two, if you allow the leader to grow without messing with it. You can't do much else to the original trunk during this process as you will slow the growth of the leader.

Scars heal. Don't worry about it. The vast majority of Japanese maple bonsai from Japan (and elsewhere) undergo this chop/grow out regimen in their training. If you know where to look, you can see where even an expertly grown maple bonsai has been cut back. Scars can be minimized or hidden--a diagonal cut on the trunk should have the face of the cut on the eventual BACK of the tree. Plan for that when you make the cuts--i.e. find the front of the tree (usually where the roots look best) and face the chop away from it.

Don't worry about branches at this point. They are among the last stages in growing out a trunk. Branches can be developed relatively rapidly, over a couple of years.

All of this can't be done in two years. Bonsai takes a bit of time--the bigger the trunk and more developed the root spread in the original material, the less time it takes. That's why thicker trunked bonsai tend to be more expensive, there is more time invested in them by their growers.
 
johng said:
Rules are only for the unimaginative... Very, very, very few natural trees have a 6 to 1 ratio...think about it...30' tall tree with 5' diameter trunk...I see those everyday day don't you??

I'm have lots of tall trees... I like them.... How about 20 to 1 or even 40 to 1. Perhaps the tree that garners as much attention as any in my garden is a Cypress clump with 5 trunks. The largest trunk is maybe 1.5" and all the trunks are in the neighborhood of 60" tall.

One the other hand, my largest(not tallest) trees are more like 3 or 4 to 1...

Ratios are really meaningless....make trees you like!
Click to expand...
Amen! Some of the most interesting/impressive trees I've seen (bonsai, not in the wild) have been tall with thin trunks, sometimes with little or no taper. It doesn't matter whether someone else wouldn't bother to water such a tree.

You can always chop a tree later to make the typical, uninspired 6:1 ratio'd informal upright or sumo shohin.
 
johng said:
Rules are only for the unimaginative... Very, very, very few natural trees have a 6 to 1 ratio...think about it...30' tall tree with 5' diameter trunk...I see those everyday day don't you??

I'm have lots of tall trees... I like them.... How about 20 to 1 or even 40 to 1. Perhaps the tree that garners as much attention as any in my garden is a Cypress clump with 5 trunks. The largest trunk is maybe 1.5" and all the trunks are in the neighborhood of 60" tall.

One the other hand, my largest(not tallest) trees are more like 3 or 4 to 1...

Ratios are really meaningless....make trees you like!
Click to expand...
I'm with you -- up to a point. Those new to bonsai are unfamiliar with what bonsai is. They often mistake unnatural (tall, grotesque, just plain weird looking) trees as good bonsai candidates.

You need to know where to start to make sense of unusual stock. Without the basic knowledge of how "unimaginative" trees are made, the unusual stuff that can result is just plain ugly and will remain so for a long time, probably until the grower either realizes it's crap, or they lose interest in it because, well, it's ugly...

I started with weird trees because I thought weird equaled good bonsai. I gradually lost interest in them when I saw what really good stock was and how to handle it. I started making "unimaginative" trees, but now 25 years later, I can't really say any of the stuff I have is "traditional" or uninteresting...
 
Some of the most interesting trees in the woods,to me, are the ones in the ravine in the interior of the forest that barely have 1 foot trunks ,but are towering to the light way above with just a few sparse branches in the canopy.Like a single forest style tree.
Though I am not sure you could pull that of with this tree cause it would have to have most branches up top.Plus maples in leaf would not look right in this style,only when out of leaf.
 
rockm said:
You're expecting to move ahead too quickly. Three inches isn't all that much.

Going forward--You will grow out the topmost bud into a new leader after you reduce the trunk. You let the new leader to grow until its base is a similar diameter to the trunk, then chop that leader back to an inch or so. This is how taper is built up in a bonsai-in-training over time. Given that this is a relatively young tree, growing a proper leader out will only take a season or two, if you allow the leader to grow without messing with it. You can't do much else to the original trunk during this process as you will slow the growth of the leader.

Scars heal. Don't worry about it. The vast majority of Japanese maple bonsai from Japan (and elsewhere) undergo this chop/grow out regimen in their training. If you know where to look, you can see where even an expertly grown maple bonsai has been cut back. Scars can be minimized or hidden--a diagonal cut on the trunk should have the face of the cut on the eventual BACK of the tree. Plan for that when you make the cuts--i.e. find the front of the tree (usually where the roots look best) and face the chop away from it.

Don't worry about branches at this point. They are among the last stages in growing out a trunk. Branches can be developed relatively rapidly, over a couple of years.

All of this can't be done in two years. Bonsai takes a bit of time--the bigger the trunk and more developed the root spread in the original material, the less time it takes. That's why thicker trunked bonsai tend to be more expensive, there is more time invested in them by their growers.
Click to expand...

Rockm thanks for the well written write-up (man I wish I had that gab gift)
Yeah I know exactly what you mean. Done it before with smaller trees, but never with a 3 inch JM. The more I think, the more sure I am that this is the only realistic way forward. Not so sure that I will get that much growth here in NZ. Things happen very much slower here because of the climate and I'm in my late 50s...:p
The other thing is, I have removed it from the ground a month ago, and cut off lots of downwards roots. Only left the flat ones. I don't think it will survive a chop now after all that....?
When chopping something this thick it will be better putting it in the ground I presume...to grow the new leader I mean? Thoughts?


cmeg1 said:
Some of the most interesting trees in the woods,to me, are the ones in the ravine in the interior of the forest that barely have 1 foot trunks ,but are towering to the light way above with just a few sparse branches in the canopy.Like a single forest style tree.
Though I am not sure you could pull that of with this tree cause it would have to have most branches up top.Plus maples in leaf would not look right in this style,only when out of leaf.
Click to expand...

Very much agreed cmeg1. :)
 
ColinFraser said:
drastic bend.
Click to expand...

Drastic Bender!

Seriously Colin.... little worried only because I know a guy with a similar story, and his spirit animal did him in.

I hope you are well my man!

Sincerely,
Sorce
 
fredman said:
Rockm thanks for the well written write-up (man I wish I had that gab gift)
Yeah I know exactly what you mean. Done it before with smaller trees, but never with a 3 inch JM. The more I think, the more sure I am that this is the only realistic way forward. Not so sure that I will get that much growth here in NZ. Things happen very much slower here because of the climate and I'm in my late 50s...:p
The other thing is, I have removed it from the ground a month ago, and cut off lots of downwards roots. Only left the flat ones. I don't think it will survive a chop now after all that....?
When chopping something this thick it will be better putting it in the ground I presume...to grow the new leader I mean? Thoughts?




Very much agreed cmeg1. :)
Click to expand...
You're kind of working at cross purposes. First things first--growing out the trunk is the priority, secondary is creating a flat rootball. That's because the roots are the engine that drives topside development. A leader will grow faster with a big (even downward growing), undisturbed rootmass. Better if it's in the ground. You will be amazed at how quickly an established inground tree can push new leader growth.

At this point you will probably have to leave the chop until next growing season. If I were you, I'd get the tree into the ground and let it alone all season, even better, the next two or three seasons. Ground growing is useless if the tree isn't left alone for at least two years. That's about the minimum I've found benefits resulting. Takes that long for roots to establish themselves enough to push real appreciable growth.

So, plant the tree out. Let it get established, chop next year, or preferably two years from now--grow out a leader for a year. Then you might think about lifting it...

I don't know your climate, but here in Virginia, we get sub zero F winter nights sometimes and spring cold can result in freezes in April and frosts into May--which is mid-spring. Japanese maples do fine here and grow very well. FWIW, JMs and most other trees put on "wood" in the autumn and root growth continues well into December--even if there's freezing weather. The ground stays warm enough to support in-ground root growth into the beginning of winter.
 
Thanks mate. I'll go that way. I'm doing that with a ordinary JM to. Its the same size. Put it in the ground a month ago. I'll put this katsura next to it, as its a better spot to.
Thanks for spending the time...:)
 
I just realized that this tree reminds me of something - a nearly zero-taper Zelkova I picked up this year with plans to layer and chop it into several trees in the next year or two. The trunk is nearly 4' and with the whips it's well over 6'
image.jpeg
 
Man that's me. I bought lots of trees from nurseries and layered their tops off. I'll never walk past potential layers... ;)
 
Update on this tree....it has had quite a journey.
After I lifted and potted it up, I chopped it low. I then put it in the ground...inside its container, to grow a new leader. I find it easier later to remove the container from the ground than digging it up.IMG_20200718_120154.jpg
 
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It grew strongly for the next few years. I periodically lifted, trimmed the roots and top and put it back in the ground (inside the container) again.
IMG_20240120_195242~2.jpg

I was in two minds whether to carve the trunk, or air layer the top off. I went with carving...I can always air layer later...I thought.
IMG_20240121_153724~2.jpg
Today I trimmed off its spring growth, and I think it has decent bones now to take it forward.
IMG_20251210_110658~2.jpgIMG_20251210_110703~2.jpgIMG_20251210_110736~2.jpgIMG_20251210_110725~2.jpg
 
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