Help me Reduce This Trident Maple

[dbonsaiw]

I would like to reduce the trunk of this trident maple in the late spring. I can't seem to wrap my head around these trunk chops and looking for guidance before I destroy another tree.

I believe my confusion is on the relationship between angle of cut, die back and refining the cut at a later date. I plan to chop where there are already existing branches. Here are the questions:

1 - When I chop the trunk, how close to the node do I cut? Do I leave a protruding nub?
2 - Do I round the carve initially?
3 - When chopping on an angle, I've read to cut at a 45 degree angle. Is that correct?
4 - What happens if I cut the angle too steep? (I cut one pretty steep, but it has branches all around).
5 - Finally, what does it mean to clean up the cut in the following years?

Sorry for the barrage of questions.

 

[johng]

Generally anytime I am chopping a tree and hoping for bud back (not chopping to an existing branch) I always make a flat straight cut perpendicular to the trunk. Diagonal cuts are made later after a potential apex branch has sprouted and started developing. It is often very difficult to identify nodes in developing trunks...often this is just a guessing game. If you can see a node cut a little above the node...maybe 1/2 to 1".

Cleaning up the cut is removing the extra that was above the node and then making a diagonal cut to to improve the illusion of taper. Furthermore cleaning up the cut can mean that after I have made the diagonal cut, I will carve, grind, or cutout with concave pruners a slight hollow in the scar area of the diagonal cut to facilitate better healing.

I hope this makes sense...

 

[dbonsaiw]

I hope this makes sense...

This makes tons of sense (and I don't know why I seem to have a mental block).

I've been playing around with this tree in an attempt to learn something. It was taller and I cut back last year on a slight angle. Went back to "fix it up" and probably mangled it. I'm not planning on keeping this part of the tree in any event and may just let it grow to see how it heals.

What do you think this cut would look like in a few years? Is this how the cut would be made if I wanted to proceed from this point or is this too steep?

 

[rockm]

I would like to reduce the trunk of this trident maple in the late spring. I can't seem to wrap my head around these trunk chops and looking for guidance before I destroy another tree.

I believe my confusion is on the relationship between angle of cut, die back and refining the cut at a later date. I plan to chop where there are already existing branches. Here are the questions:

1 - When I chop the trunk, how close to the node do I cut? Do I leave a protruding nub?
2 - Do I round the carve initially?
3 - When chopping on an angle, I've read to cut at a 45 degree angle. Is that correct?
4 - What happens if I cut the angle too steep? (I cut one pretty steep, but it has branches all around).
5 - Finally, what does it mean to clean up the cut in the following years?

Sorry for the barrage of questions.

Chopping the trunk has nothing really to do with finding a node. It has more to do with choosing what you want as the final proportion for the trunk and planning ahead a bit. Find the spot where you think the final height of the finished tree will be...chop three or four inches below (this can vary and it's a guessing game) so you can develop the apex. Cut FLAT as John G. said. Wait for new buds to pop. Hopefully one will appear near the top of the front you've chosen (which NEVER happens exactly--which is why selecting secondary and tertiary "front" possibilities--based on the best views of the nebari at soil level is a good idea.) Using existing branching to being the apex is OK, IF that branching lines up with some of the nebari features underneath. Mostly it won't...

After chopping, choose appropriate bud to continue and encourage it to extend--there will likely be more than a few given this is a trident. Leave others to help close the wound and/or begin developing new lateral branching from the cut site. Leave the wound as is this growing season. Typically when I do a trunk chop, I wait until the following year to do the angle cut, as well as the "finishing"--cutting the edges, sanding out the pruning would. An additional angled chop cut the same time as the initial cut removes a lot optional apex bud choices. It can "lock you into" the final choice of front--which may not be the best if the apex bud doesn't come exactly where yo want it (it NEVER does BTW). The Angle of the second should be steep enough not to leave an obvious "neck bulge" on the trunk, but not so steep that you're removing a third of the trunk and leaving a thin stub behind. You're working to create as smooth of a transition is possible...too much angle is as bad as too little. It's subjective and never the same tree to to tree.

 

[dbonsaiw]

This was very helpful, thank you. In the end, I am still suffering from nube-disease - the desire to get a tree into a pot way before it is ready for that. I think working the tree down to size and the lack of movement was confusing me. I chopped it down to existing buds and will choose a new leader in the spring, assuming I don't decide to go even lower. It's now about 10" tall.

Can I chop again in the summer or just wait for next year?

 

[Shibui]

Can I chop again in the summer or just wait for next year?

Let's not get too far ahead of the tree. Sit back, take some deep breaths and wait to see what happens as a result of this first chop.
With luck you will get lots of new shoots along the trunk, some near the top and some lower. If there's a great shoot at a great location encourage it to thicken - you can keep trimming competing and higher shoots to suppress those which should help the chosen one grow faster. Don't clean up chops, recut, etc until the new leader is strong and hardened off for best results. Need good strong sap paths from roots to the new leader to reduce chances of die back after making a new cut. Healing will also be faster if there's good sap flow already established. It can take a year or 2 to get a new leader well established. No need to hurry. The new leader needs to grow a lot to begin to match the old stump so let it grow. Then make another chop, higher on the new leader and repeat. Each cycle gets a bit shorter as the new leader doesn't need to grow as much as you move up the trunk.
Developing the new trunk and branches can often take longer than developing the original thick trunk.

In the event you don't get good new shoot in the right places let it grow for a year at least to recover energy before making another chop. Repeated chops too close together will definitely weaken the tree and can be counterproductive.

3 - When chopping on an angle, I've read to cut at a 45 degree angle. Is that correct?

I guess 45 deg is average but definitely not mandatory. Sometimes nearby branches, useful shoots or trunk bends mean less angle. Sometimes the trunk will dry out and die back a bit making the cut steeper. Steeper probably gives a better transition from thick stump to new, thinner leader but try to do what looks good from the chosen front and with the bends and branches available.

5 - Finally, what does it mean to clean up the cut in the following years?

Already explained.
Cleaning up also covers removing any dead sections where the edges of a cut have dried. Sometimes none, sometimes more depending on species, how you made the cut and conditions after.

 

[rockm]

Let's not get too far ahead of the tree. Sit back, take some deep breaths and wait to see what happens as a result of this first chop.
With luck you will get lots of new shoots along the trunk, some near the top and some lower. If there's a great shoot at a great location encourage it to thicken - you can keep trimming competing and higher shoots to suppress those which should help the chosen one grow faster. Don't clean up chops, recut, etc until the new leader is strong and hardened off for best results. Need good strong sap paths from roots to the new leader to reduce chances of die back after making a new cut. Healing will also be faster if there's good sap flow already established. It can take a year or 2 to get a new leader well established. No need to hurry. The new leader needs to grow a lot to begin to match the old stump so let it grow. Then make another chop, higher on the new leader and repeat. Each cycle gets a bit shorter as the new leader doesn't need to grow as much as you move up the trunk.
Developing the new trunk and branches can often take longer than developing the original thick trunk.

In the event you don't get good new shoot in the right places let it grow for a year at least to recover energy before making another chop. Repeated chops too close together will definitely weaken the tree and can be counterproductive.


I guess 45 deg is average but definitely not mandatory. Sometimes nearby branches, useful shoots or trunk bends mean less angle. Sometimes the trunk will dry out and die back a bit making the cut steeper. Steeper probably gives a better transition from thick stump to new, thinner leader but try to do what looks good from the chosen front and with the bends and branches available.


Already explained.
Cleaning up also covers removing any dead sections where the edges of a cut have dried. Sometimes none, sometimes more depending on species, how you made the cut and conditions after.

Excellent explanation. Don't rush to do anything. Another chop is years away.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Let's not get too far ahead of the tree. Sit back, take some deep breaths and wait to see what happens as a result of this first chop.
With luck you will get lots of new shoots along the trunk, some near the top and some lower. If there's a great shoot at a great location encourage it to thicken - you can keep trimming competing and higher shoots to suppress those which should help the chosen one grow faster. Don't clean up chops, recut, etc until the new leader is strong and hardened off for best results. Need good strong sap paths from roots to the new leader to reduce chances of die back after making a new cut. Healing will also be faster if there's good sap flow already established. It can take a year or 2 to get a new leader well established. No need to hurry. The new leader needs to grow a lot to begin to match the old stump so let it grow. Then make another chop, higher on the new leader and repeat. Each cycle gets a bit shorter as the new leader doesn't need to grow as much as you move up the trunk.
Developing the new trunk and branches can often take longer than developing the original thick trunk.

In the event you don't get good new shoot in the right places let it grow for a year at least to recover energy before making another chop. Repeated chops too close together will definitely weaken the tree and can be counterproductive.

So helpful, thanks. It seems this tree is good to go for at least a few years. Just watering and feeding, and strengthen the leader. Easy enough. I will repot next year as I just put this guy into a huge grow box last year with a root prune. Now I can concentrate on my other trees.