Growing runks for Mame/Shohin sized Azaleas?

[Attila Soos]

No. But...

Sentandome - removing terminal buds. Doing so disrupts a growth inhibiting hormone that prevents the development of dormant and adventitious buds. If properly carried out at the right time those buds will develop in to shoots and in turn branches. My use of the word "buds" refers to vegetative buds not flower buds.

Wow, Graydon you got it.

So, the terminal buds trigger the growth inhibiting hormone. Terminal buds are where the flowers develop, and that acts like a cap on growth. Remove the terminal bud, and you remove the cap, so that the branch will keep growing faster than ther other branches, where you don't touch the terminal bud.

You select the main trunk line. Wire the branch that will be the main trunk. When the growing season starts, let the branch finish its growth spur. As soon as the terminal leaves mature (signaling the end of the growth spur), remove the terminal bud. This will stimulate further growth, while the other branches that have their terminal bud intact, will stay put.

PS: when removing terminal buds, don't wait until the tip of the branch starts showing the beginning of the flower bud, and then you are going to remove the flower bud. By waiting for this, you are wasting a lot of time. Instead, as soon as the branch stops elongating (the leaves at the tip become dark and hard), just cut off the very tip of the branch.

 

[Attila Soos]

...by the way, A. Kennedy in his book: Floral Treasures of Japan: Satsuki Azaleas talks about this phenomenon and the growth-inhibiting hormone due to the terminal bud. He also has some diagrams, showing how the main trunk is developed. So, if you guys are seriously interested in satsuki, get the book.

 

[Attila Soos]

Thank you for the tips all, those are my first azaleas so i really whant to get it right. It takes enough time without having to redo stuff All help is truly appreciated

So this is what one should strive to get? Or should i strive to get more horizontal low braches to thicken the trunk furter down and improve taper? As a sidenote, i dont grow stuff larger then Shohin so this trunk lacks all movement and taper in the areas that are of interest for me.

And Attila, you are sucha teease...

From http://www.telperionfarms.com

Kai,

Looking at the lovely little satsuki on your picture, there are a few remarks that I can think of.

First, you obviously need to move the plant into a much larger pot, or into the growing fields of your backyard. Otherwise, it will never become thick enough in your lifetime, for a great shohin. Remember that it needs strong surface roots, and those surface roots will not develop when growing in a pint-sized pot. Surface roots become thick when they are left to grow out as much as possible.

Second, the main trunk has two problems: its shape is totally uninteresting, and it has no branches for a long stretch in the middle. In order to develop taper, you need branches all over the trunk.

You could wire the main trunk into some kind of S-shape, but frankly, that will only going to make it almost as boring. The problem with wiring the main trunk is that you are trying to create a shohin, so you need to develop an interesting trunk shape over a very short stretch. And the trunk has to look natural. With wire, on a shohin, this is very hard to achieve, without creating an artificial looking shape. Wiring the main trunk would work very well if you were growing a larger bonsai, since you would have a longer stretch to work with.

So, there are two solutions to create a great trunk.

One is to just create a more or less straight trunk. It can be a formal upright style, or an informal one with just one curve, or slant. In this case, the highlight of the bonsai will NOT be the interesting trunk shape, but the great taper (to be developed later), powerful nebari, and the nice branch placement. To achive this, you need cut the main trunk back, in order to stimulate the formation of branches EVERYWHERE from the nebari, and all the way up. These branches will all be sacrifice branches, just to create taper. None of the branches that you see now, will be part of the final branch design, since they will all be too thick by then. When the trunk has the desired thickness and taper, you will have to cut off all branches and build a final branch structure.
Going back to cutting back the main trunk in order to stimulate branches everywhere, the next phase is to let the main trunk grow out fast and long, and then cut back again (the trunk chop method to develop taper). So you are using two methods to create taper: growing sacrifice branches everywhere and doing trunk chops. One note about trunk chops on azaleas: they are slow to heal over scars since they have a very thin bark, so you have do chops in steps that are smaller than in the case of other species, like elm or maple.

Solution number two, for a nice trunk:

This one makes use of the smaller branches growing from the base of the tree. Cut back the main branch half way, just to re-direct energy towards the other small branches at the base. Use the clip and grow method on those small branches at the base, to create some interestin and spontaneous movements in those branches, and combine the clip and grow with some wiring. As soon as you see an interesting trunk shape in one of those small branches (you can work with several of them, to have multiple choices), gradually cut back on the main trunk (half this season, and another half next season), and train the newly selected small branch to become the main one. You can use the terminal bud removal method, to accelerate growth. This way, you can have a much more interesting trunk shape.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but it is hard to describe this in a few words. When I was at the beginning of my bonsai years, I had no idea what to do with such a small plant like yours. I was just taking care of it, pruning it here and there, and HOPING that somehow time will make it develop into a nice bonsai. But nothing happened, except the plant became a bigger nursery plant, with no resemblance to bonsai, except a few useless foliage pads that later had to be removed.

It is important that you have a clear plan from the beginning, and you visualize the whole process, so that you don't waste the first five years for nothing. Remember that the first 10 years, you will not be doing real bonsai on this tree, but just growing bonsai stock, just as the bonsai farmers do. Then later, you will use those bonsai techniques that you see in the books. Those bonsai thechniques are very different from the techniques of growing bonsai stock.

Regards,
Attila

 

[Graydon]

...by the way, A. Kennedy in his book: Floral Treasures of Japan: Satsuki Azaleas talks about this phenomenon and the growth-inhibiting hormone due to the terminal bud. He also has some diagrams, showing how the main trunk is developed. So, if you guys are seriously interested in satsuki, get the book.

I agree. It's a great book is it not? I did not pull that book to answer your query though. It was easily available if you looked in Satsuki Azaleas by Robert Callaham.

I only have three azaleas (well perhaps 2 now as I may have lost my chojuho while at the convention due to a dumb ass move on my part). The information I need to continue to develop them came from those 2 books.

 

[Graydon]

Wow, Graydon you got it.

Thanks - but down south we say "sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut". I just knew where to look for the answer.

I'm fascinated with azaleas. Let's keep this thread going shall we? I will try to make some time to shoot photos of my three trees and post them. Good illustrations in techniques - in my case some of them were bad but it's a learning experience.

 

[Kai]

Thank you Attila exactly the kind of information i was looking for, truly awesome The Azalea in the pick isnt one of mine, its just a pick i found from a bonsai nursery in the US, needed some kind of reference... I have just started a whole bunch of cuttings from some different Kurumes and just whant to be prepared for the next step, next year or something

Regarding nebari development for Mame/Shohin sized Azaleas, any one of you used the "Tube" method to create thicker roots? In short i think you take the cutting, place it in a small "tube" filled with soil, this to force the roots to grow long down into the tube to reach the soil and prevent the shallow rootsystem azaleas have (?). Thus creating thicker roots, since they need to grow longer. Then the roots are trimmed, and new finer feeders are allowed to grow. Anyone with experience of this?

And thank you again, you bonsainuts are a true source of wisdom

 

[Attila Soos]

Graydon,

I agree, both are great books I had the Kennedy book first, so that's where I learned about it.

I work with 25 satsuki, all of different variety. It took me a few years to learn how to grow them successfully here in So. Cal., since they prefer a cooler climate, at one point I almost gave up completely, after I lost a rare and old gem, imported from Japan (Yikes, my pocket book!). But now I figured it all out, with the help of my neighbour, Tom Nuccio, one of the top satsuki growers in the nation, and they are healthy and happy.

 

[Attila Soos]

Regarding nebari development for Mame/Shohin sized Azaleas, any one of you used the "Tube" method to create thicker roots? In short i think you take the cutting, place it in a small "tube", this to force the roots to grow long down into the tube to reach the soil. Thus creating thicker roots, since they need to grow longer. Then the roots are trimmed, and new finer feeders are allowed to grow. Anyone with experience of this?

And thank you again, you bonsainuts are a true source of wisdom

It's a pleasure.

The tube method with azala would be very tricky, if not impossible. That's because azalea roots are different from the roots of most other species: azalea roots grow as very fine and dense pads. When you re-pot azaleas, you cannot and should not separate the individual roots with a root hook, because you will kill them. You just shave off the outer rim and bottom part of the fine root pad, and the root pad looks like a sponge.

The other problem is that azalea roots cannot survive a soil dry-out. Since a tube has little volume of soil, there is a big risk of drying out, unless you constantly water it, which can cause rot. I imagine that you could try it if you live in Hawaii, Florida, or ... Thailand, where the air is so moist that it can keep the soil moist without even watering.

The tube method works great with Ficus, since figs have no problem growing roots in almost ANY condition (they even grow in the air, as you know), but I highly doubt in case of the azalea. Azalea roots need a very stable, cool, free draining, and moist environment. They prefer deep pots. A tube is anything BUT stable: it becomes hot and cold all the time.

 

[Kai]

Thanks - but down south we say "sometimes even a blind squirrel finds a nut". I just knew where to look for the answer.

I'm fascinated with azaleas. Let's keep this thread going shall we? I will try to make some time to shoot photos of my three trees and post them. Good illustrations in techniques - in my case some of them were bad but it's a learning experience.

Yes i agree, i have all kinds of flowering trees, but just recently started to look into Azaleas. And the more i look into it the more curious i get.. Like i mentioned in the op, i grow all my stuff from cuttings or seed (Hehe il be long dead before most of it even reaches a bonsai pot ) the Azalea makes one of the most beautiful flowering small bonsais but presents somewhat of a different challenge due to its different growth habit. Any photos would be much appreciated

 

[Kai]

Just reading this over and over again and trying to digest it all

So you are using two methods to create taper: growing sacrifice branches everywhere and doing trunk chops.
Since im working on such small sizes, i guess it possible to at some point in time use this terminal bud pinching on the sacrifice branches to enhance taper? I mean "slow" top growth and enhance lower horizontal branch growth to create better taper?

One note about trunk chops on azaleas: they are slow to heal over scars since they have a very thin bark, so you have do chops in steps that are smaller than in the case of other species, like elm or maple.
On my other trees i pretty much just trunkchop in the spring, on Azaleas 2 times a season, or more? Or do you mean in shorter segments?

 

[Attila Soos]

Just reading this over and over again and trying to digest it all

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Your method of developing taper would also work. It is a much slower method, but the result is more refined and more natural-looking, with much less scars. The problem is just that it would take at least twice as long to finish it, but if you have other trees to work in the meantime, then you don't have to sit idle.

Regarding the trunk chops, what I meant was, don't let the trunk become too thick before you chop it. As an example, with elms, I would sometimes let the trunk grow 1.5 inches, or 2 inches thick, before I chop it. So, if you measure the diameter of the cross section of the trunk, it could be 1.5 to 2 inches. With azaleas, I would not let it thicken more than 0.5 to 0.75 inches diameter at the place where I make the cut, or else the scar becomes too big to heal.

As to how many times to chop in a year, that would depend on how fast the trunck thickens (rate of growth): if the trunk reaches 0.75 inches by mid-summer, then I would chop it and create a new growth spur. If not, then I would wait till next year.

I don't use a set formula for the frequency of cuts (such as once a year, or twice a year, etc). It all depends on when a certain branch or trunk reaches the desired thickness, and that's the time when I need to cut. But there is a restriction to that: I don't do trunk chops if the time between the trunk chop and the onset of dormancy is thoo short (less than a month and a half). You need to give time for the new growth to mature before dormancy. Here in California we have long summers and mild winters, so this is not a big problem. But in colder climates, this is a major issue.

 

[ianb]

Alright, some very good information here and it seems we have established Attila as our resident Azalea expert, so I have a question:

I have a nice shohin azalea that infortunately was blown off the benches last fall and broke a couple of branches. I was hoping these would bud again but no luck so far but the branches are still green when scratched. The tree is very healthy (didn't let it flower and it has been fed well) so I am thinking of cutting back hard on the rest of the tree to try and get some budding in these 2 areas as well. Is this a good plan and would now be the right time to do this? I'll take a pic tomorrow so you can see how far along it is.

 

[Kai]

Ok then i understand, thank you The reason for my once a year chop is just the short summer season we have here, only very vigourus trees allows for 2 chops a season for just the reason you mention.

Regarding the tube method i think is used, its actually a "tube" made of some kind of cloth stapled into a tube put competely down into the soil. It prevents the roots from spreading but lets moist in. And a small "ring" off the cloth tube is cut from the top as thicker roots develop. Atleast thats what it looks like

 

[Mooseman]

Attila, thanks for this very useful explanation of the growing of Azaleas. It has helped to explain what I have observed from my ignorant tamperings with a couple of ordinary dwarf azaleas I picked up in a garden centre.

All the ones I found were shrubby with multiple trunks, and since I had read that azaleas were basally dominant, this was no surprise. I have observed some difference in the growth rates of branches where I had removed flower buds early, and more recently, both azaleas have put on a lot of new growth after removal of the remaining flowers. (I let a few flowers develop to see the colour).

Thanks again for the "inside" information on these beautiful plants. I think I will seek out a copy of the recommended book.

 

[Glider]

Wow, Graydon you got it.

So, the terminal buds trigger the growth inhibiting hormone. Terminal buds are where the flowers develop, and that acts like a cap on growth. Remove the terminal bud, and you remove the cap, so that the branch will keep growing faster than ther other branches, where you don't touch the terminal bud....

Oh, Attila, you tricked us! I thought you had some new way of extending growth by controlling flower buds....I feel so violated!

Most of my azaleas have established trunk lines now (apart from about 3 and one that's gone a bit odd at the top), and I'm using the technique you describe on branches below the apex to get them to extend to thicken the trunks, although when it was explained to me, he (Ken) called it 'tipping', as in; "I'm just going to tip (remove the terminals of) these azaleas while you look around".

I tend to leave the terminals at the apex of the ones that are tall enough, to hold them there, but I remove the flower buds so as not to waste time waiting for the new shoots so I can increase ramification.

Eventually, when the trunks are nice (or at least acceptable, depending how patient I am, although I do expect it to take some years), I'll remove all the branches and select new ones from the budding that generates.

 

[Kai]

I tend to leave the terminals at the apex of the ones that are tall enough, to hold them there, but I remove the flower buds so as not to waste time waiting for the new shoots so I can increase ramification.

I thought the flower bud embryos where the terminals, now im confused again..

 

[Glider]

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse anybody. It's exactly as Attila says; the terminals are where the flower buds will develop (and the vegetative shoots that form beneath them), if you allow them to. These terminals produce inhiobitory hormones. By removing the terminals, you remove the embryonic buds and halt the production of inhibitory hormones. However, if you leave the terminals, they will produce flower buds (and inhibitory hormones) which effectively slows the growth at that point.

For my purposes, on the trees that are tall enough, I don't want extended growth at the top, so I leave the terminals there. However, I don't want the trees to waste time and energy on flower production either, so I remove the flower buds when they are large enough so the vegitative shoots at their base take off first thing in Spring.

On lower branches (the sacrifice branches Attila was talking about), I tip them out (remove the terminals completely), to allow them to extend much more, thus thickening the trunk lower down.

Sorry for any confusion

 

[Kai]

Hmm ok.. So those buds that make those 4-5 new stems from below every "flower whorl" starts to form after the flower bud? And in removing the terminal bud (before flower bud starts to form), those new branching shoots dont develop, or they develop anyway?

 

[Glider]

The whole 'cluster' (flower buds and the shoots that form below them) begins to form at the terminal which stops the branch growing any more. But these are embryonic; tiny clusters of cells at the terminals that differentiate into different types (flower or shoot) and release inhibitory hormones to stop the branch growing whilst they develop (and also inhibits the formation of adventitious buds and other shoots).

It's the plants' way of directing its energy to where it's needed at that time (future flower production for reproductive purposes). Evolutionarily speaking, it would be too demanding and unnecessarily wasteful (of energy) for for the plant to have to grow and produce flower buds. So, as mentioned, these embryonic clusters of cells release inhibitory hormones to stop unnecessary growth whilst the plant concentrates on its reproductive cycle.

However, at the time the branches stop growing, these clusters of cells at the terminals are tiny. There is no way of telling them apart for all practical purposes (i.e. without a microscope), so yes, by removing the terminals, we are removing the embryonic clusters that form both flower buds and the next season's shoots, but we also halt the production of the inhibitory hormones which triggers new growth in the stem. It basically tricks the plant into an 'oh, it's not the reproductive phase, so it must be a growing phase' state, so buds just behind the terminals take off and continue to extend.

 

[Kai]

Ok that was what i was thinking, in creating a leader, when i have pinched out the terminal bud i have to choose a new shoot as leader, right?