Graceful Triple Trunk Ostrya virginiana, Hop-Hornbeam

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Nice to see Ostrya being used for bonsai. I have half a dozen seedlings in 3rd and 4th summer of growth. I agree that Ostrya, Ironwood, is not as tough or resilient as elm, it is a bit delicate, but Ostrya has proven much more resilient than Carpinus. In the wild, Carpinus are in the secondary flood plains, down to the stream or riverbanks. Carpinus is definitely an understory tree. Ostrya is similar except it tends to be found in drier habitats. More upland from the streams. Usually Ostrya is found where it rarely or never floods with standing water. Ostrya can also be found in more open forest edge habitats. It takes to full sun much better than Carpinus. Neither want to be as dry as a red or black oak, neither is drought tolerant, but Ostrya will come back from getting too dry in the pot more easily than Carpinus. For me Carpinus will die the first time they are allowed to dry to wilt point. Ostrya usually come back from the wilt point. This is just my personal observations, they are different enough in growth habit that it makes sense that they are in different genera. So compared to Carpinus, Ostrya likes a little more sun, a little less water. Compared to an elm, Ostrya want less sun, more water. Ostrya are slightly more tolerant of media that is not mildly acidic, or they do not require as strongly an acidic media, where Carpinus really does want a media that is nearly as acidic as what we provide azaleas.

I would not use an all inorganic media for Ostrya, nor Carpinus. Both like a media more like what a Japanese maple would like, fairly high in organics, mildly acidic and holding a good amount of moisture while still being able to breathe. 100% DE is a poor choice. I use a blend that is about 1/3rd composted fir bark. The rest is pumice, and akadama or pumice, lava, DE, and composted bark. Again the bark is a large component.
Nothing wrong with DE, or Turface, or Hydroton, Haydite or the miriad other inorganic media, none of them should be used as sole component in a mix. !00% anything is probably a poor choice. Exception is pumice, 100% pumice is excellent for establishing newly collected trees. Once a tree is established, a blend should replace 100% pumice.

 

[0soyoung]

Both like a media more like what a Japanese maple would like, fairly high in organics, mildly acidic and holding a good amount of moisture while still being able to breathe.

I have about a dozen Japanese maples in pots in my back yard that are screaming BS about the need for organics or other poop. They all thrive in nothing but Turface MVP, which is slightly acidic (pH~5.5), some for nearly a decade now. Shortcomings of their aesthetic beauty is the fault of my poor artistry, not because they have no organics (other than incidental stuff) around their roots.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I have about a dozen Japanese maples in pots in my back yard that are screaming BS about the need for organics or other poop. They all thrive in nothing but Turface MVP, which is slightly acidic (pH~5.5), some for nearly a decade now. Shortcomings of their aesthetic beauty is the fault of my poor artistry, not because they have no organics (other than incidental stuff) around their roots.

Performance of a potting mix varies based on a number of environmental factors. Water quality is a big one, watering frequency, and fertilizer choices, all play into how a media performs. How frequently one repots also is a factor. So I accept that you are having great results with turface. You have the balance of factors just right. For me turface was a poor performer. I also saw more people having trouble with it than not. So we'll just have to disagree on whether to recommend turface to those new to the hobby.

I wish turface had worked better for me, it is much cheaper here, and easily available. I just have had problems.

 

[0soyoung]

Performance of a potting mix varies based on a number of environmental factors. Water quality is a big one, watering frequency, and fertilizer choices, all play into how a media performs. How frequently one repots also is a factor. So I accept that you are having great results with turface. You have the balance of factors just right. For me turface was a poor performer. I also saw more people having trouble with it than not. So we'll just have to disagree on whether to recommend turface to those new to the hobby.

I wish turface had worked better for me, it is much cheaper here, and easily available. I just have had problems.

I agree completely.

The only thing I disagree with is the claim I cited in post #22, that Japanese maples like a medium fairly high in organics.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I agree completely.

The only thing I disagree with is the claim I cited in post #22, that Japanese maples like a medium fairly high in organics.

Similarly, I have had maples die in all inorganic mixes, they need something organic in there, in my conditions. 100% Turface did not work for my maples, they died. And I did try raising maples in 100% turface, this is not "internet info", my real world experience with maples and turface was a failure. As a result I currently have zero Japanese maples, recently acquired a couple Amur maples, but basically I lost over 15 maples in a 10 years period.

 

[0soyoung]

Similarly, I have had maples die in all inorganic mixes, they need something organic in there, in my conditions. 100% Turface did not work for my maples, they died. And I did try raising maples in 100% turface, this is not "internet info", my real world experience with maples and turface was a failure. As a result I currently have zero Japanese maples, recently acquired a couple Amur maples, but basically I lost over 15 maples in a 10 years period.

I'm sorry to hear that. Leo. Nevertheless, I strongly believe the inference you derive from your experience is incorrect.

Thriving hydroponic farming industries and my experience in this hobby firmly convince me that organics around roots are not necessary for any plant.

I've had around 10 acer palmatums die in my hands. The absence of organics in the substrate was not indicated in the death of any of them. Overly aggressive root work, over watering after a repot (it is possible to drown roots in Turface!), failure to adequately secure the tree to the pot, a diseased/damaged tree with no outward signs of trouble when I bought it, and mistakes in experimenting on them with phytohormones, were responsible for their demises.

I have an amur maple that thrived without any organics in the Turface, but which has become weak because of things I've done trying to develop it into a nice compact bonsai. I have a number of generic green acer palmatums that are all air layer clones. Two of these are now about a decade old and one of them has never been potted in anything other than Turface. I also have layers of acer palmatum 'Orange Dream' and 'Shin Deshojo' from my landscape specimens (I continue to experience a peculiar problem with 'Shin Deshojo layers that remains unresolved). I have two acer shirasawanums that I grew from seed found on a 'golden full moon' both of which, as well as layers of one, are continuing to thrive in nothing but Turface.

I also have a number of acer circinatums and acer platanoides (as well as a couple of unidentified maple seedlings) that I found as volunteers in my landscape. All do just fine in nothing but MVP. I've killed a few of these over the last few years trying to make interesting plantings (on inverted pots,tiles, saucers, etc.). I've learned that at a certain small size, muck walls become life threatening because of the clay I use, but straight MVP still works quite nicely regardless of the species/variety and size of tree.

You've evidently solved an horticultural difficulty by using an organic component in your substrate mix. I applaud your work ?. Again, I only differ with your inference that maples need organic material around their roots.

With respect.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Always honored to have a thread of mine turn into a turface debate ?? ??

 

[TN_Jim]

Always honored to have a thread of mine turn into a turface debate ?? ??

 

[TN_Jim]

Mike, have you or anyone know of, tried or succeeded in thread grafting Ostrya? Have you considered it with yours?

I aim to attempt this...as early as possible regarding their slow growth. However, I’m wondering what is too early/too winter?...It seems like leaves were opening well before our last freeze.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Mike, have you or anyone know of, tried or succeeded in thread grafting Ostrya? Have you considered it with yours?

I aim to attempt this...as early as possible regarding their slow growth. However, I’m wondering what is too early/too winter?...It seems like leaves were opening well before our last freeze.

I have not attempted a thread graft with Ostrya, but I have a feeling that your head is in the right place. Besides this tree collected this past spring, my only other Ostrya is a clump of ten or so seedlings I planted together in spring of 2017. Kind of a lark, hoping their root base kind of fuses together eventually.

This feeling comes mostly from my experience with Carpinus caroliniana. Now I don’t know how similarly they behave really other than they both are slow growing and are both in the subfamily Coryloideae. But about half the Carpinus I’ve collected have died and I’ve seen how easily they can die back down the trunk after chops. Particularly , I see now that it is important to have growing branches or buds on both sides of a trunk. I’ve seen one side of a trunk stay alive because there is a branch on that one side, while the other side of the trunk will die back all the way down to the next branch. Now, this was in my first couple years of trying to collect, so some of this was due to me not being practiced, but I think with collecting Carpinus it is probably always better to collect them earlier in the spring than you would for a lot of other trees. Like weeks before the buds break. I think if there is still snow on the ground that’s probably a good thing for collecting Carpinus, but I have to do more collections to get a better sense of this.

Now let’s not assume that Carpinus = Ostrya but I have heard of people having similar difficulties with collecting Ostrya and since they are related and both seem to be slow growers my instinct is to assume for now that any collection, root work, hard pruning, or thread grafting in Ostrya is probably better done on the early side of spring when they really are more dormant. My guess is that when the buds are fully swollen is not actually the ideal time, like most other deciduous trees.

This triple trunk Ostrya I collected later than I wanted to. A few of the buds had actually just started to open. Once the leaves emerged all the leaves hung down perpendicular to the ground for a month. I kept it in full shade during this time. I wasn’t sure if it would make it, but eventually the leaves perked up and then new growth followed. I think recovery time could have been much shorter if I collected earlier. I think the fact that I didn’t prune many branches after collection probably helped too.

So, there’s a bunch of rambling for you. But I think you are right in thinking that attempting a thread graft earlier than you would with other species is the way to go. I think you may have to expect that the thread graft will take longer to take since they are slower growing and slower to form callus, etc. These are all my half formed theories, but I would be very interested to see how your thread graft goes as this tree may be a good candidate for a thread graft or two down the road.

 

[atlarsenal]

I want one!!! Anybody know where I could acquire one let me know. Here’s a beauty I have worked on a few time at my study group.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

I want one!!! Anybody know where I could acquire one let me know. Here’s a beauty I have worked on a few time at my study group.
View attachment 215358

I think this one is an oriental variety, I can hook you up with ostrya collecting this winter

@Mike Hennigan, how's yours doing

 

[Mike Hennigan]

I want one!!! Anybody know where I could acquire one let me know. Here’s a beauty I have worked on a few time at my study group.
View attachment 215358

Yea, those leaves almost look like Japanese hornbeam to me... hmm.

 

[Mike Hennigan]

@Mike Hennigan, how's yours doing

It’s doing well! Coming into fall colors now. I’m tempted to make the trunk chops needed next spring, though it grew so slowly this season I think I may just mostly let it grow next season and get it super vigorous first.

 

[TN_Jim]

I want one!!! Anybody know where I could acquire one let me know. Here’s a beauty I have worked on a few time at my study group.
View attachment 215358

There’s been talk of ramblin, but if I’m around here once winter nods and starts to look like collecting, I’d be happy to collect some with or extra for ya, just let me know.

In the last year I’ve started to pick them out of the crowd in the woods, they’ve grown to be destintive, because of bark especially, sawtooth, pattern, and just-almost rough fuzzy attenuate leaf apex, shape...honestly just a really neat species

I saw one in Mammoth Cave NP this past summer...the people I was with kept walking I didn’t...since, I found a couple on my property just behind my house..whaa

those, they’re mosty vertical after cut, but there are areas around where they can be odd
..found and blessed with amazing back country roads

I’m not going to try to airlayer one this coming year, but whatever it be, the hunt, or sent, after no profit..happy to share, may need to let go of the ones I have even...
luckily I have family here...all that scouting tree spots around here, good regardless

was actually looking at this thread this morning and thought that maybe Mike’s tree was possibly missidentified..

I really didn’t like the flat lenticels...and the bark wasn’t exactly 100%, at least compared to the little one I have...

point is, is they do get flat or compressed on early wood...didn’t know that.. mine and others around seem are mostly all small relativly circular...morphology is indeed variable
not a cherry

thanks

 

[Mike Hennigan]

Mine is definitely a hop-hornbeam, Ostrya virginiana, I can tell you that. The bark is still immature, it’s only just developing mature bark right near the base of the biggest trunk. Will be interesting to see how long it will take to develop mature bark in bonsai culture.

 

[TN_Jim]

 

[TN_Jim]

Mine is definitely a hop-hornbeam, Ostrya virginiana, I can tell you that. The bark is still immature, it’s only just developing mature bark right near the base of the biggest trunk. Will be interesting to see how long it will take to develop mature bark in bonsai culture.

I couldn’t agree with you more...that’s what I am saying. As well as, I thought I was starting to know this one well...and you helped me know it a bit better..

Thank you

 

[TN_Jim]

I couldn’t agree with you more...that’s what I am saying. As well as, I thought I was starting to know this one well...and you helped me know it a bit better..

Thank you

also, I’ve had this idea to always look for the base of the trunk for that blocky shred characteristic...I’m wandering if you found this tree in leaves last year, because it’s starting to for sure higher up..?

That will fill in low faster than anything probably?
However, regarding your previous post, I greatly respect your wait another year for vigor, but do you fear...it’s just a slow species?

 

[Mike Hennigan]

also, I’ve had this idea to always look for the base of the trunk for that blocky shred characteristic...I’m wandering if you found this tree in leaves last year, because it’s starting to for sure higher up..?

That will fill in low faster than anything probably?
However, regarding your previous post, I greatly respect your wait another year for vigor, but do you fear...it’s just a slow species?

It seems it is probably a slower growing species than others, but bonsai is a slow endeavor anyways so what the heck!

I am pretty satisfied with the growth it gave me this year. I wish I had taken a picture of how hard I pruned the roots before I potted it up, but I went very hard on the roots. So with that in mind, it’s understandable if it wasn’t super vigorous this year. I think next season will give me a better idea of how fast of a grower it is now that it has reestablished its root system pretty well.

Always good to see others working with this under used species, looking forward to learning more about hophornbeam as I go!