I collect quite a few of yamadori pines, both Ponderosa and Lodgepoles, that have long gangly branches 8-12" long with one small growth at the end of the branch and nothing else clear to the trunk. I have worked at getting back budding with these trees for some time with moderate success. I am looking for experienced help or ideas if possible. I have had two suggestions in the past in regard to this...(1) fertilize the heck out of the tree with high nitrogen fertilizer in late summer/early fall before dormancy. (2) wire the branches and then bend them into medium/small "S"'s causing the cambium layer to be broken in the area and thus causing back budding. Critique and suggestions appreciated. Thanks for help.
GETTING BUD BACK ON LONG GANGLY BRANCHES
- Thread starter August44
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Nybonsai12
Masterpiece
I don’t work with pondys or lodgepoles but is grafting an option? The fertilize and hoping for backbuds is often a disappointing game.
pandacular
Masterpiece
If you're interested in learning more about grafting, it's best to turn your sights not to the bonsai world, but the nursery world.
In US nurseries, Dirr and Heuser is THE definitive book on tree propagation. So much so that when I was asking the director of a local nursery about grafting techniques, he recommended it and said he would give me a job on the spot if I read it all. Sadly, I'm currently gainfully employed...though I dream of taking a sabbatical as a nurseryman.
If all you need is a bud, I would try a T-graft. They seem to have exceptionally high acceptance rates.
In US nurseries, Dirr and Heuser is THE definitive book on tree propagation. So much so that when I was asking the director of a local nursery about grafting techniques, he recommended it and said he would give me a job on the spot if I read it all. Sadly, I'm currently gainfully employed...though I dream of taking a sabbatical as a nurseryman.
If all you need is a bud, I would try a T-graft. They seem to have exceptionally high acceptance rates.
I need branches (already there) that will bud back. The branches are already the right length with only one bud at the end of each. I would have to do an awful lot of grafting to replace them. I also don't know if Lodgepole will even graft.
pandacular
Masterpiece
I flipped through the Pinus section of Dirr and Heuser, and there was basically nothing on grafting. All that means really is that nurseries don't graft for production purposes, but that also means it's likely not easy.
So grafting to the extent that I would need it is out the window I will assume. Does anyone have any input with wiring the branches and then bending them pretty severely along the area you need budding in? I was told this would work locally but would like to verify that before I do it. It sounds like that would be harmful verses helpful. Thanks for help.
Colorado
Masterpiece
I think that wiring the branches down/out can help with backbudding, although I am not sure it is from cracks in the cambium. Seems to have more to do with sun exposure to the bare branches and hormonal distribution of lowering the growing tip(s).
However, I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect a ponderosa to back bud like a maple, for example.
ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I have a bit of an experiment going on right now with a ponderosa that might be loosely related.
The tree had rather one-sided branching so I was uncertain how go about styling it. A low chop to get down to the more even branch distribution could kill the tree, so was not my first choice. I finally recalled that pines grown with cascading branches have a tendency to prioritize the more upward growth, eventually abandoning the cascades. So I used guy wires to pull the apex down, and removed candles from it as I saw strong growth elsewhere.
Theoretically, the tree should start putting it's energy into buds and candles on rest of the branches on it's own, and in a few seasons won't notice the loss of the old apex despite it being a large portion of the mass.
So far it looks to be going as expected, but I only started this season.
Now this technique is using existing buds, and I don't have too much of a care yet where any new appear. Still it might help you brainstorm some.
The tree had rather one-sided branching so I was uncertain how go about styling it. A low chop to get down to the more even branch distribution could kill the tree, so was not my first choice. I finally recalled that pines grown with cascading branches have a tendency to prioritize the more upward growth, eventually abandoning the cascades. So I used guy wires to pull the apex down, and removed candles from it as I saw strong growth elsewhere.
Theoretically, the tree should start putting it's energy into buds and candles on rest of the branches on it's own, and in a few seasons won't notice the loss of the old apex despite it being a large portion of the mass.
So far it looks to be going as expected, but I only started this season.
Now this technique is using existing buds, and I don't have too much of a care yet where any new appear. Still it might help you brainstorm some.
Ok and agree. Thanks Frank
MaciekA
Shohin
I've heavily twisted collected skinny lodgepoles into contorted shapes. Some of these ended up budding out of straight wood close to the stress points of the bends, so there may be something to the idea that you can get budding out of stressed regions that are forced to heal. But I never bet on this since it's not predictable.
In cases where I've seen this effect the most, the trees in question were not elderly trees, rather relatively young and recovered into an extremely vigorous state (bare rooted into straight coarse pumice on bottom heat in a tall airy basket, full sun, strong fertilizer post recover). In such conditions, they can bud out of wood or even pre-bifurcate their buds before they even become candles, push needles out of terminal buds (the first step in pre-bifurcation), and activate needle buds.
Older collected lodgepoles, the kind that have long gangly drooping branches, can also push buds out if you push these trees into high-vigor-pine conditions similar to like I've described above (except for the bare rooting, but ideally working the rootball down aggressively so that roots go into expansion into an airy coarse media). Important to note: it takes time to build vigor of the kind required to see buds blasting all over the place. Cutting doesn't induce these effects, vigor and withholding from cutting does.
With the above in mind, I don't collect lodgepoles with the expectation that this will be the mechanic for making a collected tree with gangly branches do what I want. So for me, the solution has been to wire branches down as early as I can, and rely on an initial styling to get me to a first iteration that I'd be happy with... even if I could only get budding out of existing needles or outwardly-expanding growth. Shoot grafting is a good option too if you can be on-site trained to do it reliably (or find a professional grafter).
For these gangly leggy lodgepoles, what has helped me is to get very comfortable with wiring, and to study how junipers are styled in similar scenarios. Specifically scenarios where all that is available is one gangly drooping branch out of a singular apical primary. Drop that branch elegantly enough and you can build a tight bifurcating canopy from anywhere. The material you find in lodgepole woodlands calls for a narrower range of available design strategies, at least as far as my limited skills go.
In cases where I've seen this effect the most, the trees in question were not elderly trees, rather relatively young and recovered into an extremely vigorous state (bare rooted into straight coarse pumice on bottom heat in a tall airy basket, full sun, strong fertilizer post recover). In such conditions, they can bud out of wood or even pre-bifurcate their buds before they even become candles, push needles out of terminal buds (the first step in pre-bifurcation), and activate needle buds.
Older collected lodgepoles, the kind that have long gangly drooping branches, can also push buds out if you push these trees into high-vigor-pine conditions similar to like I've described above (except for the bare rooting, but ideally working the rootball down aggressively so that roots go into expansion into an airy coarse media). Important to note: it takes time to build vigor of the kind required to see buds blasting all over the place. Cutting doesn't induce these effects, vigor and withholding from cutting does.
With the above in mind, I don't collect lodgepoles with the expectation that this will be the mechanic for making a collected tree with gangly branches do what I want. So for me, the solution has been to wire branches down as early as I can, and rely on an initial styling to get me to a first iteration that I'd be happy with... even if I could only get budding out of existing needles or outwardly-expanding growth. Shoot grafting is a good option too if you can be on-site trained to do it reliably (or find a professional grafter).
For these gangly leggy lodgepoles, what has helped me is to get very comfortable with wiring, and to study how junipers are styled in similar scenarios. Specifically scenarios where all that is available is one gangly drooping branch out of a singular apical primary. Drop that branch elegantly enough and you can build a tight bifurcating canopy from anywhere. The material you find in lodgepole woodlands calls for a narrower range of available design strategies, at least as far as my limited skills go.
bwaynef
Masterpiece
Mirai (and by extension, Todd Schlafer) are who I'd look to when it comes to handling Ponderosa. I don't have any Pondies, and since I don't think they do well in the souteastern US probably won't be getting any ...so haven't followed closely all the specifics of their care that Ryan calls for. I may have the order of operations wrong, but basically he gives a rough styling, and fertilizes the tree constantly (in the early stages). The goal in the earliest stage is ridiculously long needles. Once you have lots of vigor, that drives backbudding. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.
Also, The Grafter's Handbook by Garner is the go-to for grafting. Hands-on instruction would be better if you can get to someone to help you. I don't see any reason you couldn't graft branches for density, but patience and technique could get you backbuds.
Also, The Grafter's Handbook by Garner is the go-to for grafting. Hands-on instruction would be better if you can get to someone to help you. I don't see any reason you couldn't graft branches for density, but patience and technique could get you backbuds.
pandacular
Masterpiece
Thanks for the suggestion. Dirr and Heuser is a great collection of what techniques work on which species, but no so much a handbook on how to do it.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Ponderosa, lodgepole pine can all back bud with the proper care and technique. The process is similar with most pines.
First the tree must be brought into not just a healthy state but vigorous growth pattern. This can take two or three years with collected trees.
Successful back budding is a result of a combination fo factors including:
1.Vigorous, healthy state.
2.Pruning back the central leaders and apical buds to healthy side shoots. ( this is only possible in healthy stock with increased foliage from step one)
3.Wiring the branches down to assist the cytokines to produce new buds after removal of apical leaders and reduction of auxin dominance.
4.Maintaining healthy growing conditions as for developing trees, rather than dialled back watering and fertilizing that is often used for refinement!
Summary of PM sent to poster.
Comments from experience with Shore Pine, Scots Pine, Ponderosa, and assorted other pines. In my view the main cause of poor results is not taking the time to get the tree in top condition before starting. Many collected trees are weak, not very healthy with limited foliage. It may take years to get then robust with enough extra foliage and health to begin. So the fundamental aspect of Bonsai. Patience.
Just my thoughts.
If you post a picture of the tree in question, then it would be easier to give advice. Some are simply just a candidate for grafting if you wish to improve them within a reasonable time frame. others can be improved considerably within five to ten years. Ponderosa can be graft with JBP to create denser foliage and shorter needles for Bonsai.
First the tree must be brought into not just a healthy state but vigorous growth pattern. This can take two or three years with collected trees.
Successful back budding is a result of a combination fo factors including:
1.Vigorous, healthy state.
2.Pruning back the central leaders and apical buds to healthy side shoots. ( this is only possible in healthy stock with increased foliage from step one)
3.Wiring the branches down to assist the cytokines to produce new buds after removal of apical leaders and reduction of auxin dominance.
4.Maintaining healthy growing conditions as for developing trees, rather than dialled back watering and fertilizing that is often used for refinement!
Summary of PM sent to poster.
Comments from experience with Shore Pine, Scots Pine, Ponderosa, and assorted other pines. In my view the main cause of poor results is not taking the time to get the tree in top condition before starting. Many collected trees are weak, not very healthy with limited foliage. It may take years to get then robust with enough extra foliage and health to begin. So the fundamental aspect of Bonsai. Patience.
Just my thoughts.
If you post a picture of the tree in question, then it would be easier to give advice. Some are simply just a candidate for grafting if you wish to improve them within a reasonable time frame. others can be improved considerably within five to ten years. Ponderosa can be graft with JBP to create denser foliage and shorter needles for Bonsai.
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roberthu
Chumono
Feed heavily in the fall and not cut or wire anything that year. Do the same the second year but reduce needles and shoots at the top, wire the branch you need back budding so it drops down but bend the tip so it faces up. Keep the tip below the shoulder of the branch. You should see heavy back budding in the third year.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I disagree here.
Grafting in regular nursery business is not about pretty. It is about volume and reliability.
Also, a link to a book about propagation has little bearing on the topic at hand.
I think grafting COULD be an option (I would then consider 2 or 3 grafts at the base of branches that you then over the years grow out to create the tree from. And yes, this may ask for dozens of grafts in complex trees (Although I feel that most bonsai have only a limited number of primary branches).
Aiming for backbudding.. As posted before. Focus on getting your tree ridiculously healthy and then prune hard in early summer. This is what I have been shown to work on Scots pine, and seems to translate to other pines.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Are you sure it's a Ponderosa? They are not native to New York and as far as I can tell haven't been transplanted and don't grow here
River's Edge
Masterpiece
This is an example of the question posed within this thread! The tree was a collected Shore Pine ( type of lodgepole ) The tree was cared for improperly for thirty years and exhibits the gangly growth with limited foliage at the tips of branches. Picture one shows the healthy condition created from two years of better care after a repot. The following pictures show the extent of pruning this past fall and some of the new back buds showing up now further back on gangly branches. Also note the tree is keeping older needles longer at this point. ( a key hint that the tree is stronger at this point, Also the needles are longer in the new growth.
The process will now repeat itself , grow out and strengthen, then prune back hard for further back budding. In four or five years the improvement will be very noticeable.
The second process will involve grafting if desired on the older portions of primary branching. It is not reasonable to expect back budding to occur on the older heavily barked branches and trunk. Grafting is the best solution for that aspect of development. Stong new shoots will be used from the grow out process for scion grafting in selected locations.
Please Note: this is posted as a reclamation project, not an example of quality Bonsai. Practicing techniques valuable for the type of issue posted in this thread.
The process will now repeat itself , grow out and strengthen, then prune back hard for further back budding. In four or five years the improvement will be very noticeable.
The second process will involve grafting if desired on the older portions of primary branching. It is not reasonable to expect back budding to occur on the older heavily barked branches and trunk. Grafting is the best solution for that aspect of development. Stong new shoots will be used from the grow out process for scion grafting in selected locations.
Please Note: this is posted as a reclamation project, not an example of quality Bonsai. Practicing techniques valuable for the type of issue posted in this thread.
I'm actually not sure and really wet behind the ears when it comes to pines - for whatever reason my 10 year took to pines (probably because I'm into deciduous). Maybe I'll start a thread on this one. Whatever it is, it is native to NY as he pulled it out of the ground in the middle of a forest and came face to face with a porcupine (exciting stuff for us city slickers).
River's Edge
Masterpiece
I think as bonsai enthusiasts we need to recognize the important contributions grafting for propagation have made to our bonsai grafting techniques, tools and supplies. We may adapt their techniques and tools for our own specific goals but I am not sure we would have the same level of success without their initial research and practise in the nursery trade. We often critique grafted trees, however there are some incredibly talented graft " masters" in the Nursery trade. In my view it is not so much who did what first, but more the benefits of shared knowledge, experience and products.
