Just to clarify...do this AFTER 2 years of waiting after collecting?
GETTING BUD BACK ON LONG GANGLY BRANCHES
- Thread starter August44
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Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
We have to remember than we can wire a loop into a branch and then approach graft it onto itself.
I'm approach grafting some pines with branches of the same tree, while they're attached to the tree, and it seems to be working.
This saves us in doing scion grafting which is difficult. And it gives us multiple opportunities since a failure means "just pick another spot".
Takes a while, but waiting for back buds takes just as long and the two aren't mutally exclusive.
I'm approach grafting some pines with branches of the same tree, while they're attached to the tree, and it seems to be working.
This saves us in doing scion grafting which is difficult. And it gives us multiple opportunities since a failure means "just pick another spot".
Takes a while, but waiting for back buds takes just as long and the two aren't mutally exclusive.
Pictures Pls?
Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
Schematically.
Hard to see how deep it is enveloped because of the cut paste.
But in essence, any long and leggy branch can be looped, shaved down to half the width, and then pasted back onto itself (at also a shaved or better: carved, site) closer to the trunk.
River's Edge
Imperial Masterpiece
Unfortunately approach grafts yield poorer aesthetic results! Appearance matters in Bonsai. Sometimes it pays to take the time to learn the more difficult techniques. This is one of those times. If you are talking young developing stock that do not have aged bark the difference is not the same issue after thirty years. However with collected yamadori and grafts on older portions approach grafts are a poor choice in my opinion.
MaciekA
Shohin
I believe @roberthu 's comment (that you are replying to) is strictly in the context of the time after a pine has crossed the "ready for anything" line.
The same is true of @River's Edge 's comments about what to do to techniques-wise (reducing sacrificials/leaders, wiring down, fertilizing strongly). These are things to do once a pine has crossed the "ready for anything" line.
To be wiring and pruning pines and getting reliable budding requires all the vigor ducks lined up in a row. The root system has to be in youthful expansion mode. Needle length during domestication should be trending longer than it was in the wild (depending on where a lodgepole came from..). Tip shoots should be producing multiple terminal buds. And above all, total foliage in the canopy should be increasing, should be lustrous, firm, and sharp. Water retention time should also be dropping noticeably-- if a pine is drying out the deeper parts of the soil quickly, that is probably a sign of vigor. Once you have brought a pine to this stage you will always know it when you see it.
So regarding "2 years", or the question I think you were asking -- When exactly can you begin to try to induce more interior branching on a collected pine?:
In my experience, the timeline for a pine to be in a "ready for anything" state after collection is wildly variable and strongly tied to various factors (specifics of how collection went, your pine horticulture skills and implementation, your recovery setup, luck of the draw, soil moisture observation skills, etc etc).
It's so variable that I personally wouldn't include ponderosa and lodgepole in the same conversation about the topic, because lodgepole can sometimes be ready to go in 2 years after being collection, but there are ponderosas that aren't ready for anything for far longer than 2 years after collection. This can be especially true if that ponderosa has to be repotted in stages and started out with a very stringy / gangly / sparse root system.
If you are good at judging risk in pine work you might do some parts of Frank's recommendations early in order to set up the conditions for budding (light exposure, hormone balance). For example, with a lodgepole where I am very confident that I can apply wire safely, I might wire branches down before the ready-for-anything period has fully arrived.
The more vigorous and young they are out of the ground the more you can jump the gun. The more you lean on things like bottom heat after recovery, the more foliage you leave on the tree during recovery, the more that second or third year might yield an unambiguous vigor signal. All pine work is ultimately based on feedback from the tree in the form of vigor and surplus.
Glaucus
Omono
I have heard conflicting things about different experts (and also concerning different pine species) regarding inducing backbudding on old wood of pines.
Note, this would refer to getting buds to areas where there are no longer any needles. If you want to get backbudding on last year's growth, where the needles still are, just cut it back to there in the middle of the growing season after the tree had 1.5 to 2.5 seasons of unlimited healthy growth.
This is regarding a pine in development. If a pine is in refinement inside a bonsai pot, I am not sure.
But, getting backbuds on the trunk of a section that is 5 to 15 years old. Or at the base of a long branch. That is still unknown to me.
Some people say to just do nothing and let it grow. But surely that in itself does not give backbuds on the trunk or the base of branches. Theory here is that once there are enough excess sugars, they will just be used to produce backbuds. True in satsuki, but not pines.
Some people say you prune out the apical tips, with some specific timing, following the 'auxin from the apex keeps basal buds dormant'
Others say you leave the tips, but you pluck the needles. The theory here is not so clear to me, but I think here the lack of sugars is the driver of backbuds.
This last method was mentioned in the Telperion podcast for Bonsai Mirai:
www.bonsainut.com
I can't make full sense of what people are saying. I have a couple of field growing Scot's pine. But only now they are becoming old enough that they have old wood to potentially bud from.
Note, this would refer to getting buds to areas where there are no longer any needles. If you want to get backbudding on last year's growth, where the needles still are, just cut it back to there in the middle of the growing season after the tree had 1.5 to 2.5 seasons of unlimited healthy growth.
This is regarding a pine in development. If a pine is in refinement inside a bonsai pot, I am not sure.
But, getting backbuds on the trunk of a section that is 5 to 15 years old. Or at the base of a long branch. That is still unknown to me.
Some people say to just do nothing and let it grow. But surely that in itself does not give backbuds on the trunk or the base of branches. Theory here is that once there are enough excess sugars, they will just be used to produce backbuds. True in satsuki, but not pines.
Some people say you prune out the apical tips, with some specific timing, following the 'auxin from the apex keeps basal buds dormant'
Others say you leave the tips, but you pluck the needles. The theory here is not so clear to me, but I think here the lack of sugars is the driver of backbuds.
This last method was mentioned in the Telperion podcast for Bonsai Mirai:
Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry podcast 10/26/2019 - Telperion Farms
This episode of Ryan Neil’s podcast features Chris Kirk and Gary Woods of Telperion Farms talking about some of their methods of field growing, especially of Japanese Black Pines. This episode is full of good field growing knowledge, but they tend to be scattered around in their conversation...
I can't make full sense of what people are saying. I have a couple of field growing Scot's pine. But only now they are becoming old enough that they have old wood to potentially bud from.
roberthu
Chumono
Yes 2 years. In the one world, 2 years isn’t a long time. Slow water mobility leads to slow recovery and energy accumulation.
roberthu
Chumono
I agree. One way I judge if a pine is strong is by looking at candle length. A super strong pine can push our foot long candles at the most vigorous areas. That’s when I know I can do some major work on it. If the candles barely elongated, then I will hold off and focus on watering and fertilizing especially in the fall.
Pls tell me how to make sure to keep mobility of water high/fast
roberthu
Chumono
Full sun, let it grow freely and pay attention to soil. A good watering routine take time to figure out and every tree is different. If you pay attention to soil condition, you will figure it out fairly quickly
2 years IS a long time when you get to my age sir
Orion_metalhead
Masterpiece
We dont even know what type of Pine he has lol.
There are soooo many types of pines that react their own way.
It could be a pitch pine whch will back bud all over no problem with some fert and full sun.
It could be a ewp which everyone will laugh about trying to improve.
What type of pine do you have???
There are soooo many types of pines that react their own way.
It could be a pitch pine whch will back bud all over no problem with some fert and full sun.
It could be a ewp which everyone will laugh about trying to improve.
What type of pine do you have???
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The one I am dealing with at present is this Lodge Pole pine collected this spring. It is 45" tall and all the branches are at the top of the live growth, between the live growth and the naturally created Shari above the branches.
Note: It might look like there are branches down lower but that is long ones from above hanging down
Note: It might look like there are branches down lower but that is long ones from above hanging down
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Wires_Guy_wires
Imperial Masterpiece
I look at it differently I suppose. The best plastic surgeons aren't the best because their results are easily visible, quite the opposite.
I haven't seen much approach graft results in pines, this means it was either done very well, or not a lot of people are doing it. And if not a lot of people are doing it, I think it's difficult to say it's not aesthetically pleasing. That was just the case in the couple we did see.
This is one of those cases where I want to see for myself.
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I have a bunch of them going too. I am confident they will be hard to spot (assuming they take, else they will be virtually invisible on the final treeI look at it differently I suppose. The best plastic surgeons aren't the best because their results are easily visible, quite the opposite.
I haven't seen much approach graft results in pines, this means it was either done very well, or not a lot of people are doing it. And if not a lot of people are doing it, I think it's difficult to say it's not aesthetically pleasing. That was just the case in the couple we did see.
This is one of those cases where I want to see for myself.
)roberthu
Chumono
I used to think that way. Now I have trees that I have raised from seedlings from 10 years ago, I realize time in bonsai has a very different meaning.2 years IS a long time when you get to my age sir
Tentakelaertje
Omono
Haha first time seeing anyone else use that purple/pink wire. 2mm from the Intratuin by any chance?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
long time no see!
Tentakelaertje
Omono
Yeah man! Took some time off the forum a couple of years ago to focus on offline trees and kinda forgot its existence up until a while ago. With the Rona I felt missing out on discussing the love of bonsai with people whom are passionate about it too so it's nice to talk trees with some actually interested people again, instead of chicks only sitting through the story in order to get some
