For those who have spent $1,000+ on a specimen to develop, when did you take the plunge?

Thank you for your thoughtful comments! Did you bring your own trees to work on with your teacher, and if so did you buy/collect them with the purpose of having nicer material to work on when you were studying?
No I did not take my own trees to California. Worked on Boon's trees and studied with them. It is difficult to transport trees back and forth on a regular basis across the Canadian/USA border! Involves a lot of paperwork. I was able to take some trees to Michael Hagedorn's. regulations with some states are easier than others. Many students can take their material to work with a professional but it is not required. Personally I found that it was more advantageous for me to work with the huge variety and higher quality material that my teacher had on hand. This will vary depending on the teacher you choose, their preferences and quality of their collection.

I am fortunate to have excellent collection opportunities within British Columbia and particlarily Vancouver Island. Studying with professionals such as Boon, Michael Hagedorn and others gave me the opportunity to see and work with top notch material first hand. This has guided my personal collecting and purchase of collected material!

I should mention that exposure to top notch material often has a dampening effect on ones view of their present collection. It is not uncommon to be discouraged with previous choices as one's exposure and experience grows.
I do encourage those who are serious about improvement to work on the best material they can obtain and afford. The time and resources spent on taking the time to do it right, deserves material that has potential.
 
between one $500 tree or multiple less expensive ones - or even a single less expensive one I like better
That is a no-brainer. Get the one you like, not the one that costs more.
That is I think my point in all this. The value of your collection is decided by you. Not by the price-tag someone put on the trees. That might refine re-sale value (But depending on how long you have had it, it might not!).

It sits in your garden. You have to look at it, and you have to be proud of it when your friends come over and ask whether you are still playing with little trees. Some LOVE to show that 15 year old plant they grew from seed. Others love to show that 1000 y.o. yamadori they spend a years salary on. As long as YOU are happy with it, it is all good.
 
I've usually been in the $250 - $300 range, or material I've collected. But the older I get the more tempted I am to spend money to save time.

By the way, someone talked about "free" collected material. Collected trees are not free. You just pay for them in different ways.
 
No I did not take my own trees to California. Worked on Boon's trees and studied with them. It is difficult to transport trees back and forth on a regular basis across the Canadian/USA border! Involves a lot of paperwork. I was able to take some trees to Michael Hagedorn's. regulations with some states are easier than others. Many students can take their material to work with a professional but it is not required. Personally I found that it was more advantageous for me to work with the huge variety and higher quality material that my teacher had on hand. This will vary depending on the teacher you choose, their preferences and quality of their collection.

I am fortunate to have excellent collection opportunities within British Columbia and particlarily Vancouver Island. Studying with professionals such as Boon, Michael Hagedorn and others gave me the opportunity to see and work with top notch material first hand. This has guided my personal collecting and purchase of collected material!

I should mention that exposure to top notch material often has a dampening effect on ones view of their present collection. It is not uncommon to be discouraged with previous choices as one's exposure and experience grows.
I do encourage those who are serious about improvement to work on the best material they can obtain and afford. The time and resources spent on taking the time to do it right, deserves material that has potential.
A few things here worth emphasizing in River's post--local, in-person resources are game changers. You can learn 200 times faster if you have real-life resources to lean on. LEarning hands on repotting, will put you years ahead of trying to interpret a video online. Clubs, local collections, bonsai PEOPLE are all extremely valuable in this. I was lucky enough to live within 15 miles of the National Bonsai and Penjing Museum in D.C. when I got started. Seeing the trees there actually got me into bonsai in the first place. In-person, great bonsai look COMPLETELY different from the flat two dimensional photos on the 'net. You see their detail up close, their scale (older bonsai are a lot larger than most people think they are).

If you don't have a resource like that available, hook up with the club nearest you, even if it's 200 miles away. Get in touch with the membership. Put in some time with at least one meeting. Ask members questions, etc. See if they will let you come and see their trees. This can be an issue if you're new and not well-known, since there are concerns about theft, but putting in some time with members can show you're for real. Also ask them about local resources-nurseries, what they're using in their soil mix, general overwintering care, etc. They've done the legwork to get the best of all of that. That local knowledge up front can save you a lot of heartache as you develop trees.

Also, while you're considering trees, consider pots. Bonsai containers can last much longer than the trees themselves. It can be worth getting at least one good, or very good bonsai pot up front. You don't really need a tree for it at first. Good bonsai pots, like a basic Tokoname produced container, can teach alot simply by picking it up and looking at it. Proportions, construction and the feel of a good one can inform your decisions down the road as you get more.

 
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I don't set limits I have a savings account just for bonsai that I put X% of my wages in each month and any money I make selling trees (and other side hustles), the amount in this account dictates how much I can spend on bonsai. My misses is ok with my bonsai spending as the rent, bills & food are taken care of first and it is better than pissing my money up the wall in a pub.
 
I have a savings account just for bonsai that I put X% of my wages in each month and any money I make selling trees (and other side hustles), the amount in this account dictates how much I can spend on bonsai.
This is brilliant! Probably going to institute something like this not just for bonsai but "hobby spending" in general. Japanese chef knives and copper cookware can get expensive 😈
 
Complicated question. For me, it’s not just a certain monetary level… it’s more about personal goals, philosophy and competence level that dictate a price point. So far my price point hasn’t gotten past 500.00 yet.

My central strategy is modeled over something @Leo in N E Illinois said awhile ago. He said something which I morphed into “You should strive to work on all levels of trees as a beginner at the same time… to develop competence on each level”.

This advice sounded well thought out, so that’s what I do, with a little modification. I’ve chosen to apply this idea and focus primarily on all levels of one type of tree and learn a real lot about it. I do have lots of other species of trees in the backyard, don’t get me wrong, which I also learn about. But not with the same level of concentrated study…. Yet.

So that’s a roundabout way of saying I agree with the others who said you are better off spending less on good stock and developing it, then putting out oodles of cash to purchase really high end material.…. and also with those who said you will know when its time to spend more and what’s really good material... its when you have the skill set and horticultural bandwidth to competently handle that level of material.

cheers
DSD sends
 
This is brilliant! Probably going to institute something like this not just for bonsai but "hobby spending" in general. Japanese chef knives and copper cookware can get expensive 😈
It works well for me, I have three savings accounts one I never touch ( retirement & my inevitable death) , one for bonsai and one for general purpose and emergencies . Just buget well and I allocated the money between the accounts and my current account sensibly.
 
I also set up a second savings account to put money into for bonsai, specifically getting one really nice tree when I am ready to.
 
Asking because I've been internalizing what @Walter Pall loves to say about bonsai, which is that to make great trees it's best to start with great material. I threw out the $1,000 price point as a benchmark because that's where material seems to go from "this tree has a lot of potential but it's very young" or "this tree has a lot of structural flaws but might be a great tree if you're courageous enough to clean it up" to "this is a fantastic base and it's not hard to see how you could get something beautiful out of this in a few years".

It's also a price point that's way out of my league right now, but I could consider investing into material that expensive if I was very confident that A) I would not kill it or B) develop it in a novice way.

As someone who just started into the hobby this spring, I have no idea how long it might take me to get to that point. Which brings me to the title of the thread: when did that happen for you folks? What made you say, "Ok, I'm ready to spend the big bucks"?
Depends what species you want I guess....am thankful I'm happy with the locally-happy species in my area, which allows me to collect yama/yardadori at my liking and growing whatever I want :D
 
I haven't but I would do in the right circumstance. I am a mostly a deciduous guy but when I do I imagine it would be a very old pine or juniper. You can grow deciduous within a lifetime. You can't build out that character of a old pine or juniper in a lifetime easily.
 
It's really making buying decisions based on other people's opinions, at its heart. Essentially buying based on perceived value of tier or creator - so for instance I'm into tobacco pipes, and at thee low end you have whatever factory pipes, then you have a mid range, then you have a high end. I've got pipes across all of those. And of course there's the tobacco you smoke.

I see a ton of crap in the mid-level range because it can sell. People moving from factory pipes to "artisan" pipes for the first time, buying fat turds solely because it was made by an individual rather than a factory, because it kinda sorta looks like a pipe that another more skilled carver pulled off well. Enough so that folks who literally haven't seen enough to know what they're even looking at and go "hey that's pretty good and I didn't even get suckered by an even higher cost".

Then you see people collect tobacco before even knowing what kind they like. Latakia is heavy and smoky, Virginia can be haylike and grassy. There are ranges on each end of the spectrum as well. There are rare tobaccos on each end of the spectrum. Just because it is hard to find and expensive, does not mean that you will even remotely enjoy it. But people still stock up, because it's impressive to others, and because surely they'll figure it out, it's rare and expensive, it has to be good.

I feel like bonsai can be the same, which is why a new person can look at a mallsai and see an ancient juniper. They just haven't seen enough to even know what they're looking at, even if all the academic pieces are in place. Typically it's around aesthetics and personal opinion, I think that's why say nouveau riche in stories have the stereotype of being gaudy, they haven't been buying art long enough to know what their taste is.

Beyond all that, other newbie pitfalls:
#1 - Buying way too much way to early, and most of it bad. As others say, the foundation you're building from is what you rest everything upon. 100 bad things does not make 1 good thing.
#2 - Focus on acquisition rather than enjoyment - there's always going to be someone with a bigger hoard, a more impressive something, a more rare something. Don't chase it. It's not a sign of enjoyment or quality.
#3 - Spend too much time on forums - I'm guilty of this because I bore easily and it can feel active, like I'm doing something. Forums can really change your perception, and your taste will be influenced by it. Your sense of what's normal changes, because you're surrounded by people as into this thing or more into this thing as you are. This usually results in thinking #1 and #2 are a normal part of the hobby, because the folks in #2 are the ones sticking around posting the most and influencing the tone of the forum. The hobby isn't "consumption", the hobby is "bonsai".
#4 - really, ultimately, just never progressing beyond #1 because you get firmed up believing everyone else is a lunatic and you're the one who finally broke the code. This is usually where I see people posting hero shots of a pile of a billion of some mediocre thing. You don't need a pile of a mediocre thing, and it quickly adds up to a lesser number of very high quality things if you are determined to spend the money.
#5 - think about what you're going to use and enjoy. Don't turn it into a job. I think with bonsai this is really tough with all the cuttings and such, it adds up quickly. I'm not running an actual nursery. There is a limit to the amount of pipe tobacco I can smoke in one lifetime, well aged or not. Again, this level is different for everyone.

That's what I can think of off the top of my

It's really making buying decisions based on other people's opinions, at its heart. Essentially buying based on perceived value of tier or creator - so for instance I'm into tobacco pipes, and at thee low end you have whatever factory pipes, then you have a mid range, then you have a high end. I've got pipes across all of those. And of course there's the tobacco you smoke.

I see a ton of crap in the mid-level range because it can sell. People moving from factory pipes to "artisan" pipes for the first time, buying fat turds solely because it was made by an individual rather than a factory, because it kinda sorta looks like a pipe that another more skilled carver pulled off well. Enough so that folks who literally haven't seen enough to know what they're even looking at and go "hey that's pretty good and I didn't even get suckered by an even higher cost".

Then you see people collect tobacco before even knowing what kind they like. Latakia is heavy and smoky, Virginia can be haylike and grassy. There are ranges on each end of the spectrum as well. There are rare tobaccos on each end of the spectrum. Just because it is hard to find and expensive, does not mean that you will even remotely enjoy it. But people still stock up, because it's impressive to others, and because surely they'll figure it out, it's rare and expensive, it has to be good.

I feel like bonsai can be the same, which is why a new person can look at a mallsai and see an ancient juniper. They just haven't seen enough to even know what they're looking at, even if all the academic pieces are in place. Typically it's around aesthetics and personal opinion, I think that's why say nouveau riche in stories have the stereotype of being gaudy, they haven't been buying art long enough to know what their taste is.

Beyond all that, other newbie pitfalls:
#1 - Buying way too much way to early, and most of it bad. As others say, the foundation you're building from is what you rest everything upon. 100 bad things does not make 1 good thing.
#2 - Focus on acquisition rather than enjoyment - there's always going to be someone with a bigger hoard, a more impressive something, a more rare something. Don't chase it. It's not a sign of enjoyment or quality.
#3 - Spend too much time on forums - I'm guilty of this because I bore easily and it can feel active, like I'm doing something. Forums can really change your perception, and your taste will be influenced by it. Your sense of what's normal changes, because you're surrounded by people as into this thing or more into this thing as you are. This usually results in thinking #1 and #2 are a normal part of the hobby, because the folks in #2 are the ones sticking around posting the most and influencing the tone of the forum. The hobby isn't "consumption", the hobby is "bonsai".
#4 - really, ultimately, just never progressing beyond #1 because you get firmed up believing everyone else is a lunatic and you're the one who finally broke the code. This is usually where I see people posting hero shots of a pile of a billion of some mediocre thing. You don't need a pile of a mediocre thing, and it quickly adds up to a lesser number of very high quality things if you are determined to spend the money.
#5 - think about what you're going to use and enjoy. Don't turn it into a job. I think with bonsai this is really tough with all the cuttings and such, it adds up quickly. I'm not running an actual nursery. There is a limit to the amount of pipe tobacco I can smoke in one lifetime, well aged or not. Again, this level is different for everyone.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.
I collect and restore registration era Stanwell. The McClelland tobacco frenzy was bizarre. I have a feeling there's a lot of people sitting on pounds of tobacco they care little for, but it says McClelland, so it's gold, right?
 
Complicated question. For me, it’s not just a certain monetary level… it’s more about personal goals, philosophy and competence level that dictate a price point. So far my price point hasn’t gotten past 500.00 yet.

My central strategy is modeled over something @Leo in N E Illinois said awhile ago. He said something which I morphed into “You should strive to work on all levels of trees as a beginner at the same time… to develop competence on each level”.

This advice sounded well thought out, so that’s what I do, with a little modification. I’ve chosen to apply this idea and focus primarily on all levels of one type of tree and learn a real lot about it. I do have lots of other species of trees in the backyard, don’t get me wrong, which I also learn about. But not with the same level of concentrated study…. Yet.

So that’s a roundabout way of saying I agree with the others who said you are better off spending less on good stock and developing it, then putting out oodles of cash to purchase really high end material.…. and also with those who said you will know when its time to spend more and what’s really good material... its when you have the skill set and horticultural bandwidth to competently handle that level of material.

cheers
DSD sends
Leo is the man. I really enjoy his presence on this site. He's my favorite "regular" here.
 
This was the first tree I purchased that was over $1000. Purchased in 2017.

I had Ponderosa Pines before and knew how to kill them and also how to keep them alive. I have learned everything I know about Ponderosa Pines on this tree though.
I have a thread on here about it.

https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/sharing-a-ponderosa-in-development.33925/

2017 April.jpg

July-25-2021-2.jpg
 
The second tree I spent over $1000 for. Never owned a Rocky Mountain Juniper before this. Was told not to because I would kill it. Purchased it in 2018.
Here is the thread about the tree on this forum. https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/rocky-mountain-juniper-progression.40169/

I prefer collected material over nursery-grown trees. I think the reason that is, is because you just clean and place the branches you have. You remove some or a lot, but you have what you need. I feel with nursery material, you have to grow everything. It takes more time and planning.


August 2018.jpg

July-25.jpg
 
I am growing pre-bonsai JBP and Italian Stone Pines, they bulk up pretty fast, and I think in 3-4 years should be able to sell them in the $250-350 range, more than a Christmas tree but not 1K, they will still need work but since they are cuttings there are lots of options, I just need to try and keep a few for myself, they keep getting gobbled up after the 1 year mark.
 
I am growing pre-bonsai JBP and Italian Stone Pines, they bulk up pretty fast, and I think in 3-4 years should be able to sell them in the $250-350 range, more than a Christmas tree but not 1K, they will still need work but since they are cuttings there are lots of options, I just need to try and keep a few for myself, they keep getting gobbled up after the 1 year mark.
Not sure how this relates to the thread at hand. But selling 4 year old pine seedling cuttings for 250-350 feels like ripping people who do not know better off
 
I think the fallacy is equating great material to money.

Sure, if you want a "great" tree tomorrow, you may need to pay great money to get there. But, if you have the time and talent...all trees start from seed. Seed is cheap (most of the time!) And is nothing but potential.

Certainly along the road from seed to bonsai there is a greater number of "bad" outcomes than good...but many of them can be "fixed" by talented artists and time...
That's a ridiculous notion honestly. You just won't get the same quality tree from seed as you would if you just collected a tree. Unless you want like a very traditional Japanese maple, and even then it's gonna take decades for it to grow to a respectable size.

In any case, I agree that you don't need to spend $1000 on material, just invest in a root killer shovel and some material for a wood box, and find a tree in nature.
 
The most I have spent on a tree was around $250 and it was a gift to myself because after agonizing over spending that much money on a treat for myself I realized I freaking deserved it and took the plunge. Didn’t regret it, absolutely love the tree and it saved me many years of work and effort to try and achieve something similar. Doubt I will ever spend that much again, definitely would not be able to spend 1k but that’s not to say others who are more affluent cannot.

I also decided due to health reasons to sell off the majority of my collection and just keep a handful of trees, which made this larger purchase “cheaper” and also more worthwhile as I have the time and ability to focus on those that remain in my collection without risking neglect. It’s one of only 2 large trees that I have left, the rest are young‘uns like my little tribe of brazilians which I adore and don’t put too big of a strain on my hands to care for.
 
What about multiple trees that combine to 1,000?? My individual limit has been 400 on a crab apple unfinished specimen from Evergreen Garden Works. Besides that I’m typically in the 100-300 range on trees. I say tree because none of the material I’ve purchased is a finished bonsai it’s 3-5 years out from being showable at best. I would spend 1,000 on a trip which involves yamadori collecting and all the costs associated with it. That’s my loophole, if I spend that money , I’m traveling to destinations to collect and all the resources that go along with it (lodging, permits, tools, soil, built containers, wire etc). I’d rather collect a 1,000+ specimen on my own.
 
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