For those who have spent $1,000+ on a specimen to develop, when did you take the plunge?

[Agriff]

This stage is best achieved through the guidance and hands on experience of working with a professional or knowledgeable teacher who has this level of material for teaching purposes.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments! Did you bring your own trees to work on with your teacher, and if so did you buy/collect them with the purpose of having nicer material to work on when you were studying?

 

[Paradox]

I think this sums up my worst fears around not investing. I'm someone who ruminates a lot on just how short life is. I'm 31 years old but if I spent the next 10 years putzing around, that's like...1/4 of the remaining years that I could reasonably expect to live.

Now that's not to say that everyone who grows from seed or nurtures saplings from a young age is putzing, but I know that if I found myself in that position it would be because I was too timid to take any risks and get what I really wanted out of the hobby. In other words, it would be a regret and not a meaningful decision.

My advice to you is to make sure you have the basic horticulture care down before investing a lot of money in a tree. If you don't, you'll have a dead tree before you know it.

Those beginning years may seem like "putzing around" but they really aren't. Usually you are learning and getting down basic care correct timing of stuff and getting trees to live through repottimg and basic styling. Keeping that cheap stuff alive for a few years will give you the confidence to invest in better trees.

The key is not to go overboard with the number of trees or number of different species. This quickly becomes overwhelming and then all your trees suffer.

 

[LittleDingus]

I guess I don't really get you then. You're posting about bonsai stock on a bonsai forum, yet don't do bonsai...?

Well, I mean it IS the internet which means I can troll with impunity

I grow trees in pots because I don't have the room/climate to grow what I want in my yard. I use bonsai techniques to keep them small. I do have a few that have been in pots for decades...some I plan to keep in pots until they die or I do. If I call them bonsai people bitch that they are not "good" bonsai or that they aren't bonsai at all because they don't meet the magical definition of the day.

So...fuck it! I don't do "bonsai". I use bonsai and horticultural techniques to grow trees how I want. Does that invalidate me as a knowledgeable source? I guess so. Does that mean I can't learn new techniques and horticulture from bonsai people? Apparently.

The ignore button is easy to press...

 

[Kanorin]

Everybody's budgets are different. Some people like starting with really young stock and watching it grow over years. Some people may only have a small number of years left on this planet and want something they can put in a show in their lifetime. Some people really enjoy a mix of trees in all stages. It's all cool.

I'm definitely in the phase @rockm was describing where I've realized I have a lot of low-potential junk on my benches that I need to sell/give away/plant in the yard - in order to make room for a few higher potential trees. Some of that low-potential junk is sentimental and I'll keep it because it has value to me, but a lot of it was just cheap material to learn on. I'm hoping over the next few years to balance out my collection from 90% developing / 10% refinining to more like 50-60% developing and 40-50% refining). I'd like to have a mix of trees in all stages.

To put an equation to it: I'm personally comfortable spending on my next acquisition about ~150% of the price of a tree that I bought 1-2 years ago and is thriving. For example, if I bought a $200 maple this year I might buy a $300 one next year if I'm feeling good about how that first one is doing. (But if I'm trying out a new species that I don't have any comparable experience with, I'd temper that curve)

Also - some good points above about price of trees vs. potential of trees. I've been getting some input from my local club's veterans about what they feel has decent potential because that kind of vision takes some time to develop for a beginner (in my experience).

 

[Dav4]

I’m well into my third decade in this hobby. My first piece of stock probably cost less than $10. The last tree I purchased eclipses the $1000 mark several times over. There are many, many trees in between, with most costing much less, and many, including some of my best, costing me nothing but my time. My pockets are significantly deeper now then they were back in the mid 90’s when I started, but so is my experience and skill level… but that wasn’t the case when I acquired my first 4 figure tree, a collected juniper with fantastic potential and actually being sold at a steep discount ( I got it for less then a grand but it was listed for $1800 and was very complicated and still a financial stretch for me at the time). That tree lit a fire in me/ under me to up my game horticulturally and design wise like no other. Anyway, I hadn’t planned to make that purchase until the day I did… opportunity was knocking and I heard it. Was I ready… I guess so? The tree is still alive over 14 years later. The next 4 figure trees I acquired is/was an import satsuki that I sold 10 trees from my collection to finance prior to moving from MA to GA. It’s deader then a door nail… … and thus it goes. Everyone follows their own path in this hobby. Do you have to drop $$$ to have nice trees? Absolutely not. Are your odds improved in acquiring extremely good trees by having a discerning eye, good connections, and a well flushed checking account… absolutely.

 

[rockm]

Well, I mean it IS the internet which means I can troll with impunity

I grow trees in pots because I don't have the room/climate to grow what I want in my yard. I use bonsai techniques to keep them small. I do have a few that have been in pots for decades...some I plan to keep in pots until they die or I do. If I call them bonsai people bitch that they are not "good" bonsai or that they aren't bonsai at all because they don't meet the magical definition of the day.

So...fuck it! I don't do "bonsai". I use bonsai and horticultural techniques to grow trees how I want. Does that invalidate me as a knowledgeable source? I guess so. Does that mean I can't learn new techniques and horticulture from bonsai people? Apparently.

The ignore button is easy to press...

It kiiiinda invalidates you as knowledgable about buying $1,000 stock and why you did it--which was the question...just sayin...I'm not on your case about what you're doing. If you plan on doing your own thing, then WTF do you care what "bonsai people" think?

 

[hinmo24t]

It kiiiinda invalidates you as knowledgable about buying $1,000 stock and why you did it--which was the question...just sayin...I'm not on your case about what you're doing. If you plan on doing your own thing, then WTF do you care what "bonsai people" think?

your general attitude has invalidated you for awhile

 

[rockm]

your general attitude has invalidated you for awhile

Thanks. That's what I'm here for...

 

[leatherback]

The tree is still alive over 14 years later.

you willing to share the tree? Would love to see it. Or maybe it is on here somewhere?

 

[Dav4]

you willing to share the tree? Would love to see it. Or maybe it is on here somewhere?

Yamadori Rocky Mountain Juniper

This is a tree I acquired 2 summers ago. I re-potted it last March at a Walter Pall workshop. The tree has grown very well for me, so I thought I would go ahead and begin to style it. I'm done with the wiring for now, and need to do a bit more work on the jin at the top. The first picture...

www.bonsainut.com

 

[badatusernames]

This is a tricky argument though. Character takes time. Even growing a thick trunk will not get you the same image as a slender pine which grew over 100+ years in a bog somewhere.

My most expensive trees have been around 400E. Which would be about 500 USD. Next year I will give a demo at the european bonsai association show, corona permitting. For that I reserved a 500E tree. That is one of those agd pines from a bog. I discussed my plan with my teacher, who agreed. I think I am getting to a point that I can recognize a lot of the options these types of trees offer. However, for my provate collection I would rather have 10 good trees that were collected at moderate costs and/or puchased at reasonable prices, than 1 tree that cost 1, 2, 5000. But I like the design & first development of trees. I am not in it to have a collection of show-worthy trees.

I agree with this and even initially mentioned the $500 and under range in my post, but then I realized that's still quite a bit of money and took it out haha

but yeah for $500 even, I'd be hard pressed to decide between one $500 tree or multiple less expensive ones - or even a single less expensive one I like better. It all depends what I'm interested in pursuing. I think you can get a lot if you set your budget at that range, though.

 

[badatusernames]

I think this sums up my worst fears around not investing. I'm someone who ruminates a lot on just how short life is. I'm 31 years old but if I spent the next 10 years putzing around, that's like...1/4 of the remaining years that I could reasonably expect to live.

Now that's not to say that everyone who grows from seed or nurtures saplings from a young age is putzing, but I know that if I found myself in that position it would be because I was too timid to take any risks and get what I really wanted out of the hobby. In other words, it would be a regret and not a meaningful decision.

I've decided to do a mix. I have some older more complete stuff, and I have cuttings and seedlings, and I have everything in between. I like it all, and feel that I'm getting a fairly full experience while hopefully being aware of the standard pitfalls newbies fall into. It's not my first hobby that has collecting as a piece of it, and I've seen mistakes myself and others have made in those other hobbies, so I can kind of tell when I'm on the precipice of doing "newbie shit". Then I decide if I want to do it anyways. I think the ume I got is an example of "newbie shit", it's just, I think I'm confident that I have enough of a safety net around me now to not destroy it entirely.

 

[Cadillactaste]

Asking because I've been internalizing what @Walter Pall loves to say about bonsai, which is that to make great trees it's best to start with great material. I threw out the $1,000 price point as a benchmark because that's where material seems to go from "this tree has a lot of potential but it's very young" or "this tree has a lot of structural flaws but might be a great tree if you're courageous enough to clean it up" to "this is a fantastic base and it's not hard to see how you could get something beautiful out of this in a few years".

It's also a price point that's way out of my league right now, but I could consider investing into material that expensive if I was very confident that A) I would not kill it or B) develop it in a novice way.

As someone who just started into the hobby this spring, I have no idea how long it might take me to get to that point. Which brings me to the title of the thread: when did that happen for you folks? What made you say, "Ok, I'm ready to spend the big bucks"?

I seem to not have gotten that memo about that price point. Seems I've been doing bonsai wrong all along.

I picked this tree up for $89 off of Ebay. Actually the only way I know what it sold for. Is because I've kept in contact with the seller. He pulled the tree for me and relisted it in 2015...once my temps here made it safe to ship.

Now of course...I've put time in for development. Which is what we are paying for...when buying a more finished tree.

I've paid more than I ever thought I would going into this hobby...but stayed well within my means. I can't say which tree in my collection I paid more for. My husband was adamant I forget the price tag...and enjoy the tree.

But that said...I totally feel being a backyard hobbiest as I see myself. Passing on more quality trees for feeling they deserve more than to sit in my backyard never to really be admired...never to take them to a show. I have not hit the $1000 for a tree, mentally feeling the tree deserves more than I can offer it. Even one I really loved. I felt it selfish...of me to buy it with my not showing. To what...reside on my bench? It deserved a better journey. One where others had a chance to view it in person.. So I passed.

 

[leatherback]

just as frame if reference. This was 100 euro or so gardenbonsai of 7ft in 2011. Old, big trunk but no structure. It is right now in the workshop for a trim and clean session. But it is turning into bonsai, slowly.

I think it is recognizing potential, more than a heavy pricetag that you can get you the best trees.

 

[Colorado]

I think this sums up my worst fears around not investing. I'm someone who ruminates a lot on just how short life is. I'm 31 years old but if I spent the next 10 years putzing around, that's like...1/4 of the remaining years that I could reasonably expect to live.

Now that's not to say that everyone who grows from seed or nurtures saplings from a young age is putzing, but I know that if I found myself in that position it would be because I was too timid to take any risks and get what I really wanted out of the hobby. In other words, it would be a regret and not a meaningful decision.

I have never regretted a single penny that I spent on a tree. If you can afford to spend a little more on material that you really enjoy looking at and spending time on, it is a great purchase in my opinion.

 

[rockm]

I think this sums up my worst fears around not investing. I'm someone who ruminates a lot on just how short life is. I'm 31 years old but if I spent the next 10 years putzing around, that's like...1/4 of the remaining years that I could reasonably expect to live.

Now that's not to say that everyone who grows from seed or nurtures saplings from a young age is putzing, but I know that if I found myself in that position it would be because I was too timid to take any risks and get what I really wanted out of the hobby. In other words, it would be a regret and not a meaningful decision.

I was only a few years older than you when I made the jump to more expensive, more advanced stock. Work on those trees is only now coming into its own 25+ years later. Along with the few really good pieces I bought back then, I kept getting less expensive, but decent stuff, from raw mateiral from landscape nurseries, bonsai nurseries and collection...I bought, sold and gave away I'd guess well over 200 trees in that period. The only trees I have now from back then are the expensive ones. The upfront costs were well worth the stretch at the time, in hindsight. I also wouldn't call all those other in-between trees "putzing" either. They taught lessons and sharpened skills over the years. I was never really interested in growing anything from seeds in that time though. Seemed like a waste of time TO ME at least. Some find that irresistible.Good for them. It's a slightly different take on bonsai.

 

[Agriff]

My advice to you is to make sure you have the basic horticulture care down before investing a lot of money in a tree. If you don't, you'll have a dead tree before you know it.

Those beginning years may seem like "putzing around" but they really aren't. Usually you are learning and getting down basic care correct timing of stuff and getting trees to live through repottimg and basic styling. Keeping that cheap stuff alive for a few years will give you the confidence to invest in better trees.

The key is not to go overboard with the number of trees or number of different species. This quickly becomes overwhelming and then all your trees suffer.

For sure! This is why I am mostly training buckthorn that I pulled out of my yard right now- ideally they'll stay with me for a while but I won't shed too many tears if they keel over and die

 

[Agriff]

feel that I'm getting a fairly full experience while hopefully being aware of the standard pitfalls newbies fall into. It's not my first hobby that has collecting as a piece of it, and I've seen mistakes myself and others have made in those other hobbies, so I can kind of tell when I'm on the precipice of doing "newbie shit". Then I decide if I want to do it anyways. I think the ume I got is an example of "newbie shit"

Can you elaborate on this? I'm curious as to what you see as being newbie pitfalls across different types of collecting hobbies

 

[badatusernames]

Can you elaborate on this? I'm curious as to what you see as being newbie pitfalls across different types of collecting hobbies

It's really making buying decisions based on other people's opinions, at its heart. Essentially buying based on perceived value of tier or creator - so for instance I'm into tobacco pipes, and at thee low end you have whatever factory pipes, then you have a mid range, then you have a high end. I've got pipes across all of those. And of course there's the tobacco you smoke.

I see a ton of crap in the mid-level range because it can sell. People moving from factory pipes to "artisan" pipes for the first time, buying fat turds solely because it was made by an individual rather than a factory, because it kinda sorta looks like a pipe that another more skilled carver pulled off well. Enough so that folks who literally haven't seen enough to know what they're even looking at and go "hey that's pretty good and I didn't even get suckered by an even higher cost".

Then you see people collect tobacco before even knowing what kind they like. Latakia is heavy and smoky, Virginia can be haylike and grassy. There are ranges on each end of the spectrum as well. There are rare tobaccos on each end of the spectrum. Just because it is hard to find and expensive, does not mean that you will even remotely enjoy it. But people still stock up, because it's impressive to others, and because surely they'll figure it out, it's rare and expensive, it has to be good.

I feel like bonsai can be the same, which is why a new person can look at a mallsai and see an ancient juniper. They just haven't seen enough to even know what they're looking at, even if all the academic pieces are in place. Typically it's around aesthetics and personal opinion, I think that's why say nouveau riche in stories have the stereotype of being gaudy, they haven't been buying art long enough to know what their taste is.

Beyond all that, other newbie pitfalls:
#1 - Buying way too much way to early, and most of it bad. As others say, the foundation you're building from is what you rest everything upon. 100 bad things does not make 1 good thing.
#2 - Focus on acquisition rather than enjoyment - there's always going to be someone with a bigger hoard, a more impressive something, a more rare something. Don't chase it. It's not a sign of enjoyment or quality.
#3 - Spend too much time on forums - I'm guilty of this because I bore easily and it can feel active, like I'm doing something. Forums can really change your perception, and your taste will be influenced by it. Your sense of what's normal changes, because you're surrounded by people as into this thing or more into this thing as you are. This usually results in thinking #1 and #2 are a normal part of the hobby, because the folks in #2 are the ones sticking around posting the most and influencing the tone of the forum. The hobby isn't "consumption", the hobby is "bonsai".
#4 - really, ultimately, just never progressing beyond #1 because you get firmed up believing everyone else is a lunatic and you're the one who finally broke the code. This is usually where I see people posting hero shots of a pile of a billion of some mediocre thing. You don't need a pile of a mediocre thing, and it quickly adds up to a lesser number of very high quality things if you are determined to spend the money.
#5 - think about what you're going to use and enjoy. Don't turn it into a job. I think with bonsai this is really tough with all the cuttings and such, it adds up quickly. I'm not running an actual nursery. There is a limit to the amount of pipe tobacco I can smoke in one lifetime, well aged or not. Again, this level is different for everyone.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Agriff]

It's really making buying decisions based on other people's opinions, at its heart. Essentially buying based on perceived value of tier or creator - so for instance I'm into tobacco pipes, and at thee low end you have whatever factory pipes, then you have a mid range, then you have a high end. I've got pipes across all of those. And of course there's the tobacco you smoke.

I see a ton of crap in the mid-level range because it can sell. People moving from factory pipes to "artisan" pipes for the first time, buying fat turds solely because it was made by an individual rather than a factory, because it kinda sorta looks like a pipe that another more skilled carver pulled off well. Enough so that folks who literally haven't seen enough to know what they're even looking at and go "hey that's pretty good and I didn't even get suckered by an even higher cost".

Then you see people collect tobacco before even knowing what kind they like. Latakia is heavy and smoky, Virginia can be haylike and grassy. There are ranges on each end of the spectrum as well. There are rare tobaccos on each end of the spectrum. Just because it is hard to find and expensive, does not mean that you will even remotely enjoy it. But people still stock up, because it's impressive to others, and because surely they'll figure it out, it's rare and expensive, it has to be good.

I feel like bonsai can be the same, which is why a new person can look at a mallsai and see an ancient juniper. They just haven't seen enough to even know what they're looking at, even if all the academic pieces are in place. Typically it's around aesthetics and personal opinion, I think that's why say nouveau riche in stories have the stereotype of being gaudy, they haven't been buying art long enough to know what their taste is.

Beyond all that, other newbie pitfalls:
#1 - Buying way too much way to early, and most of it bad. As others say, the foundation you're building from is what you rest everything upon. 100 bad things does not make 1 good thing.
#2 - Focus on acquisition rather than enjoyment - there's always going to be someone with a bigger hoard, a more impressive something, a more rare something. Don't chase it. It's not a sign of enjoyment or quality.
#3 - Spend too much time on forums - I'm guilty of this because I bore easily and it can feel active, like I'm doing something. Forums can really change your perception, and your taste will be influenced by it. Your sense of what's normal changes, because you're surrounded by people as into this thing or more into this thing as you are. This usually results in thinking #1 and #2 are a normal part of the hobby, because the folks in #2 are the ones sticking around posting the most and influencing the tone of the forum. The hobby isn't "consumption", the hobby is "bonsai".
#4 - really, ultimately, just never progressing beyond #1 because you get firmed up believing everyone else is a lunatic and you're the one who finally broke the code. This is usually where I see people posting hero shots of a pile of a billion of some mediocre thing. You don't need a pile of a mediocre thing, and it quickly adds up to a lesser number of very high quality things if you are determined to spend the money.
#5 - think about what you're going to use and enjoy. Don't turn it into a job. I think with bonsai this is really tough with all the cuttings and such, it adds up quickly. I'm not running an actual nursery. There is a limit to the amount of pipe tobacco I can smoke in one lifetime, well aged or not. Again, this level is different for everyone.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head.

Ah, this is very well put. Thank you for taking the time to write all of this out! I definitely have seen some of these trends in other hobbies as well. In fact the entire reason I became interested in bonsai was that I had gotten into house plants over COVID. House plant people definitely seem to fall into that trap of thinking more and more expensive = better. I was hungry for more of the horticultural science and more interested in just focusing on a few plants, which led me here.