Bobby, to do good decision on height of the trunks you have to examine it in person with tree in front of me. But, as rule of thumb I woud do it like this - keep as many of these trunks for future design aa possible and avoid cheating unnecessary chop wound. I would shorten them all in visibly different heights. And I would try to have longest one at around 10 cm or just a bit more ( hard to tell just from pictures though).i probably will Maros, its a great opportunity to own a substantial lump of zelkova with great potential. really lovely autumn colours on this species. the shari looks like how it would of occured in nature, with no more need to refine or do anything to it. its just a matter of chopping low and growing a new canopy which is a simple enough task on such a vigorous species.
interested to know, if you owned it, would you look to make a clean cut across, about this height?
20170828_160257 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
lower
20170828_160257 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
if attempting to emulate the twin trunk hackberry above, maybe about here, although the trunks start a little higher on the hackberry
20170828_153856 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
Field grown Zelkova
- Thread starter BobbyLane
- Start date
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
jokes aside i`ve mail them asking if they can ship as a one off.. Gonna start at £85 plus shipping
here is the better rotation i was talking about, there is actually a tree in there believe it or not. the nebari isnt great though. the chop can easily be hollowed out and extended down the front of the tree, at least thats what i would do...i was in the nursery earlier, they dont ship unfortunately
Zelkova stump by Bobby Lane, on Flickrwhat you would do with material like this, the nebari is ugly, but the tree has a wide base, i would hollow out the scar and run a hollow shari right down into the base, this gives the illusion of a tree with a powerful base
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
Hi Maros, i appreciate your thoughts and what you suggest has opened my mind, my dilemma was that i didnt want to leave much scarring on the tree if any at all. using all of the trunks eliminates this problem. rather than following the twin trunk hackberry this material is better suited to three sub trunks. i had a better look today. i bought the tree but going to leave it there until i reduce it in the winter, here is a couple vids and a rough virt
part of the trunk where the shari extends into is dead, there is a possibility of making a dead wood feature at the top of that trunk, where ive outlines in red, ill see
the main trunk at the front, would be the highest one, other two varying heights as you pointed out, think it would work
37001904535_ee537d7b20_o by Bobby Lane, on Flickrfrom this rotation you get a powerful base and nebari, the shari is on show and the three sub trunks positioned to give the tree great depth. will start a thread when i begin work on it thanks again.
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BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
killer nebari on this trident at the nursery today, for anyone interested
defra
Masterpiece
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
WOW
Just curious whats the price tag of such a tree?
this one was £2,000 something...£2,200 i think
there are some smaller, impressive tridents there for around £400
I think it is way to go. Try to do virt with bit longer sub-trunks left.Hi Maros, i appreciate your thoughts and what you suggest has opened my mind, my dilemma was that i didnt want to leave much scarring on the tree if any at all. using all of the trunks eliminates this problem. rather than following the twin trunk hackberry this material is better suited to three sub trunks. i had a better look today. i bought the tree but going to leave it there until i reduce it in the winter, here is a couple vids and a rough virt
part of the trunk where the shari extends into is dead, there is a possibility of making a dead wood feature at the top of that trunk, where ive outlines in red, ill see
the main trunk at the front, would be the highest one, other two varying heights as you pointed out, think it would work
from this rotation you get a powerful base and nebari, the shari is on show and the three sub trunks positioned to give the tree great depth. will start a thread when i begin work on it thanks again.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
This is a Zelkova Carpinfolia, just up the road from me in Dulwich SW london. related to Zelkova seratta
Here's a little write up on the tree
This fine Zelkova carpinfolia is at the crossroads at Dulwich Common in South London and was/is a significant landmark.
It is diagonally opposite to the pond.
It was heavily pollarded in the early 2010s because of concerns from Transport For London about it's leaning trunk. TFL wished to fell the tree but there was a long campaign, both locally and further afield to prevent this. Eventually the tree was saved from being felled but the compromise reached was that the tree would be heavily pollarded, and the work was carried out.
In 2015 there is significant regrowth but not right to the end of the many large stumps that still remain. Some regrowth has died back.
Our Magnificent Zelkova by John Hughes and John Welton
The Zelkova which looms so magnificently over the South Circular at the busy College Road intersection is probably Dulwich’s most splendid and awesome tree, as well as being one of its rarest. Zelkovas belong to the elm family but thankfully do not share their vulnerability to Dutch elm disease. There are six species of Zelkova worldwide, of which only three attain a large tree size, the others being large shrubs.
The Dulwich tree is the largest of all the species, a Zelkova carpinifolia. Zelkova is derived from the vernacular name used in Georgia in the Caucasus, where the tree is native (see below). Carpinifolia means “having hornbeam-like leaves”, carpinus being the Latin name for hornbeam. The tree is sometimes aptly referred to, in English, as a Caucasian Elm. There are two examples of the Japanese Zelkova, Zelkova serrata, in Dulwich Park, both rather hidden behind the shrubs in the left-hand bed shortly beyond the College Road entrance.
Our Zelkova is a tree that we all see in Dulwich but rarely have time to appreciate. The best way to do that is to go close beneath it and look up. The sheer size, beauty and form of this spectacular tree can then be seen. It has the characteristic short, thick, fluted trunk and up-swept "witch’s broom" branches of the species. In preparing for this article we gained access into the centre of the rising branches about 10 feet above the ground with the aid of a ladder. A natural "hidey- hole" has been formed , almost big enough to pitch a tent in, and when you look up you get the most glorious view of the towering branches and sky beyond. It is a magical spot, although the Estate would be unlikely to welcome the sight of sprightly readers shinning up to see for themselves.
Zelkovas were first introduced into this country in 1760 and the Dulwich tree is probably one of the earlier plantings. It is one of the best specimens in the country at over 94 feet tall, with a trunk girth measuring 16 feet at its narrowest, rising to an enormous 26 feet just before the trunk divides into its multi stemmed effect. This is bigger than the largest Zelkova at Kew and its still growing!
Other distinguishing features of the Zelkova, apart from the hornbeam-like leaves, are the smooth grey bark with orange patches and the slender green/brown shoots. The fruit is a small nutlet 5-6mm in diameter, but it is rarely produced in this country. The wood is extremely hard. Indeed, the Georgian name for the tree, from which the word Zelkova is derived, is dzel meaning “bar” and kva meaning “rock”. The tree is used there for making rock-hard and durable bars for building. Interestingly, in its native Caucasus, the tree has a much more normal pattern of growth without the “witch’s broom” effect which distinguishes it in this country. Zelkova is affected by our climate being less severe in winter than its native climate in the Caucasus. This encourages it to come into leaf earlier and it is then more vulnerable to late frosts. The frosts can kill the leading bud growth, resulting in side shoots taking over, producing a multi-stemmed effect.
The noticeable lean of the relatively short main trunk probably happened a long time ago, maybe in a storm similar to the one we had in October 1987. Judging by the size of the reactive growth, this may well have been over a century ago. Since then the tree has clearly been actively strengthening key areas, such as the buttress rooting on the side opposite to the lean, which has developed into an enormous anchor. Amazingly for the size and age of the tree, there is no dead or diseased wood visible in the crown.
The Estate continue to be proactive in terms of monitoring the condition of the tree and gaining expert advice on its safety. There was a threat to the tree some years ago but thank goodness it has been allowed to continue to amaze us all. As a precaution, however, a young Z.carpinifolia was planted a few years ago on the little green across the path from the present tree.
So, next time you are stuck in traffic on the South Circular or, as a pedestrian, are waiting an age for the Pelican lights to change, look up and enjoy this remarkable tree, one of the most picturesque and distinct of any that can be grown in this country and undoubtedly one of the true glories of Dulwich.
Zelkova_(Dulwich_Common)_04-10-07_11 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
However, i had a chance to photograph the tree earlier in its 'pollarded' state. no where near as impressive. ...ill have to have a look at the branch structure in winter and take some more snaps. the natural broom like growth pattern is evident in all the pics though, maybe a source of inspiration for my own Zelkova
Zelkova carpinfolia by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
a potential layer point maybe? try doing this on a busy south london street and folks will think youre stashing narcotics! lovely small leaf size on this mature specimen
Zelkova carpinfolia by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
The heavy buttress base and left ward lean strikes an uncanny resemblance to what im trying to do with my own tree
Zelkova carpinfolia by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
37001904535_ee537d7b20_o by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
Here's a little write up on the tree
This fine Zelkova carpinfolia is at the crossroads at Dulwich Common in South London and was/is a significant landmark.
It is diagonally opposite to the pond.
It was heavily pollarded in the early 2010s because of concerns from Transport For London about it's leaning trunk. TFL wished to fell the tree but there was a long campaign, both locally and further afield to prevent this. Eventually the tree was saved from being felled but the compromise reached was that the tree would be heavily pollarded, and the work was carried out.
In 2015 there is significant regrowth but not right to the end of the many large stumps that still remain. Some regrowth has died back.
Our Magnificent Zelkova by John Hughes and John Welton
The Zelkova which looms so magnificently over the South Circular at the busy College Road intersection is probably Dulwich’s most splendid and awesome tree, as well as being one of its rarest. Zelkovas belong to the elm family but thankfully do not share their vulnerability to Dutch elm disease. There are six species of Zelkova worldwide, of which only three attain a large tree size, the others being large shrubs.
The Dulwich tree is the largest of all the species, a Zelkova carpinifolia. Zelkova is derived from the vernacular name used in Georgia in the Caucasus, where the tree is native (see below). Carpinifolia means “having hornbeam-like leaves”, carpinus being the Latin name for hornbeam. The tree is sometimes aptly referred to, in English, as a Caucasian Elm. There are two examples of the Japanese Zelkova, Zelkova serrata, in Dulwich Park, both rather hidden behind the shrubs in the left-hand bed shortly beyond the College Road entrance.
Our Zelkova is a tree that we all see in Dulwich but rarely have time to appreciate. The best way to do that is to go close beneath it and look up. The sheer size, beauty and form of this spectacular tree can then be seen. It has the characteristic short, thick, fluted trunk and up-swept "witch’s broom" branches of the species. In preparing for this article we gained access into the centre of the rising branches about 10 feet above the ground with the aid of a ladder. A natural "hidey- hole" has been formed , almost big enough to pitch a tent in, and when you look up you get the most glorious view of the towering branches and sky beyond. It is a magical spot, although the Estate would be unlikely to welcome the sight of sprightly readers shinning up to see for themselves.
Zelkovas were first introduced into this country in 1760 and the Dulwich tree is probably one of the earlier plantings. It is one of the best specimens in the country at over 94 feet tall, with a trunk girth measuring 16 feet at its narrowest, rising to an enormous 26 feet just before the trunk divides into its multi stemmed effect. This is bigger than the largest Zelkova at Kew and its still growing!
Other distinguishing features of the Zelkova, apart from the hornbeam-like leaves, are the smooth grey bark with orange patches and the slender green/brown shoots. The fruit is a small nutlet 5-6mm in diameter, but it is rarely produced in this country. The wood is extremely hard. Indeed, the Georgian name for the tree, from which the word Zelkova is derived, is dzel meaning “bar” and kva meaning “rock”. The tree is used there for making rock-hard and durable bars for building. Interestingly, in its native Caucasus, the tree has a much more normal pattern of growth without the “witch’s broom” effect which distinguishes it in this country. Zelkova is affected by our climate being less severe in winter than its native climate in the Caucasus. This encourages it to come into leaf earlier and it is then more vulnerable to late frosts. The frosts can kill the leading bud growth, resulting in side shoots taking over, producing a multi-stemmed effect.
The noticeable lean of the relatively short main trunk probably happened a long time ago, maybe in a storm similar to the one we had in October 1987. Judging by the size of the reactive growth, this may well have been over a century ago. Since then the tree has clearly been actively strengthening key areas, such as the buttress rooting on the side opposite to the lean, which has developed into an enormous anchor. Amazingly for the size and age of the tree, there is no dead or diseased wood visible in the crown.
The Estate continue to be proactive in terms of monitoring the condition of the tree and gaining expert advice on its safety. There was a threat to the tree some years ago but thank goodness it has been allowed to continue to amaze us all. As a precaution, however, a young Z.carpinifolia was planted a few years ago on the little green across the path from the present tree.
So, next time you are stuck in traffic on the South Circular or, as a pedestrian, are waiting an age for the Pelican lights to change, look up and enjoy this remarkable tree, one of the most picturesque and distinct of any that can be grown in this country and undoubtedly one of the true glories of Dulwich.
Zelkova_(Dulwich_Common)_04-10-07_11 by Bobby Lane, on FlickrHowever, i had a chance to photograph the tree earlier in its 'pollarded' state. no where near as impressive. ...ill have to have a look at the branch structure in winter and take some more snaps. the natural broom like growth pattern is evident in all the pics though, maybe a source of inspiration for my own Zelkova
Zelkova carpinfolia by Bobby Lane, on Flickra potential layer point maybe? try doing this on a busy south london street and folks will think youre stashing narcotics! lovely small leaf size on this mature specimen
Zelkova carpinfolia by Bobby Lane, on FlickrThe heavy buttress base and left ward lean strikes an uncanny resemblance to what im trying to do with my own tree
Zelkova carpinfolia by Bobby Lane, on Flickr37001904535_ee537d7b20_o by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
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Was catching up on this and started to think maybe I really should buy this in a month or so, then you bought it lol.
It does look good. It's looking better and better every time I revisit this thread.
I'd feel a great pressure on me to do right by this material though, as it is a good piece of material and I don't feel I'm good enough to do right by it,
Saying that, of course, we have to try or else we never get any where.
This place looks great!! I'm very strict with my money but I feel I'd have to go there, prepared to spend something cos there looks to be so much there.. I think I'll have to visit some how, and maybe my next tree from there.
Is it an idea to have one of the trunks left a little longer than the rest? I know in future all the new branches will grow and look natural but seems like it does be nice t have that already older trunk at the back of your tree to give it more three dimension.. i can't quite describe it..
It does look good. It's looking better and better every time I revisit this thread.
I'd feel a great pressure on me to do right by this material though, as it is a good piece of material and I don't feel I'm good enough to do right by it,
Saying that, of course, we have to try or else we never get any where.
This place looks great!! I'm very strict with my money but I feel I'd have to go there, prepared to spend something cos there looks to be so much there.. I think I'll have to visit some how, and maybe my next tree from there.
Is it an idea to have one of the trunks left a little longer than the rest? I know in future all the new branches will grow and look natural but seems like it does be nice t have that already older trunk at the back of your tree to give it more three dimension.. i can't quite describe it..
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
he's got even bigger ones he's bringing out over the winter, ill get some pics and let you know whats up. Ken is certainly worth checking out, loads of imported material great prices and also has japanese trees he's grown either from seed or mame at great prices. his prices are very good because he goes over to japan himself directly. there are some nice japanese beech there right now for around £150
yeh the highest point of the tree will be one of the middle trunks. the far right trunk has bags of character, but its dead, thats why it will be partly reduced, there is a branch lower down it though.
had not Maros intervened i might of made a clean cut, which would of been a mistake, as i have the opportunity to get some variation in the trunks, which will further give the tree more interest and uniqueness. will be making the cuts around march time. ill pick it up after the leaves have dropped and get a better look at it.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
im terrible at virts, but i think the form of the hackberry is still one of the options to consider. upon a closer look at the hackberry there is actually a third very small trunk at the back left. i circled it in red
so that third trunk rear left on mine, could be heavily reduced and just used for depth
36604925900_a94f39bcf8_o by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
as i say, ill be able to make better decisions once its in front of me. but its good to consider different possibilities, open the mind up a bit. 2 years ago i couldnt even rustle up a virt, this helps a lot when thinking ideas through.
ps one trunk would be longer than the other..i think the right side.....the left one is fat and straight without taper and should be the shorter trunk. would reduce it back to dormant nodes, maybe at a slant, with a node on top and one node under. there are lots of visible nodes on the tree for options.
so that third trunk rear left on mine, could be heavily reduced and just used for depth
36604925900_a94f39bcf8_o by Bobby Lane, on Flickras i say, ill be able to make better decisions once its in front of me. but its good to consider different possibilities, open the mind up a bit. 2 years ago i couldnt even rustle up a virt, this helps a lot when thinking ideas through.
ps one trunk would be longer than the other..i think the right side.....the left one is fat and straight without taper and should be the shorter trunk. would reduce it back to dormant nodes, maybe at a slant, with a node on top and one node under. there are lots of visible nodes on the tree for options.
im terrible at virts, but i think the form of the hackberry is still one of the options to consider. upon a closer look at the hackberry there is actually a third very small trunk at the back left. i circled it in red
so that third trunk rear left on mine, could be heavily reduced and just used for depth
as i say, ill be able to make better decisions once its in front of me. but its good to consider different possibilities, open the mind up a bit. 2 years ago i couldnt even rustle up a virt, this helps a lot when thinking ideas through.
ps one trunk would be longer than the other..i think the right side.....the left one is fat and straight without taper and should be the shorter trunk. would reduce it back to dormant nodes, maybe at a slant, with a node on top and one node under. there are lots of visible nodes on the tree for options.
Sounds like you've got all the ideas. Sounds great. It is great looking.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Effing Bobby!
Let someone say this is not a good tree and I'll be damned if Bobby don't come with the picture of the life-sized tree like.....
No, here it is right here!
Awesome bro!
Something about the way you find the exact real tree these emulate, nearly across the board.....
It is a valuable skill, and I love watching it happen!
Sorce
Let someone say this is not a good tree and I'll be damned if Bobby don't come with the picture of the life-sized tree like.....
No, here it is right here!
Awesome bro!
Something about the way you find the exact real tree these emulate, nearly across the board.....
It is a valuable skill, and I love watching it happen!
Sorce
Giga
Masterpiece
Go for it if you like it so much - just know it's a long term project and need to regrow pretty much everything.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
More virtual fun
37001904535_ee537d7b20_o (1) by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
Giga, these are extremely vigorous growers. i predict that it will have an okay ish canopy in three seasons, but ill begin to enjoy looking at it in two, in five seasons it will start to look really good and be worth 3 times what i paid for it.
the key will be in diligently rubbing out unwanted/adventitious buds and focusing all the trees energy into the keepers. no need to do any root work for another 3 years.
37001904535_ee537d7b20_o (1) by Bobby Lane, on FlickrGiga, these are extremely vigorous growers. i predict that it will have an okay ish canopy in three seasons, but ill begin to enjoy looking at it in two, in five seasons it will start to look really good and be worth 3 times what i paid for it.
the key will be in diligently rubbing out unwanted/adventitious buds and focusing all the trees energy into the keepers. no need to do any root work for another 3 years.
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BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
cheers mate! funnily it was the seller that told me about the full size zelkova tree and because it was only a few mins away i decided to take a look. weird how things happen like that.
it will be a good model to use in its winter state.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Good man, good karma!
Cheers!
Sorce
Cheers!
Sorce
Victorim
Omono
Get it home bobby. Stare at it I`m sure a few of us will be watching this one for the next few years.
I`m sure a few of us will be watching this one for the next few years.
BobbyLane
Imperial Masterpiece
I picked this one up earlier, finally. illl sit with it and decide on the next steps over the coming weeks....going to be a fun project. ive made some reductions already...
IMG_6510 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
IMG_6507 by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
updates to follow
ps thought Ken had grown this from mame size for 30 years in ground, but its actually 15
took a bunch of cuttings and stuck them all in the ground earlier
zelkova stump cuttings by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
IMG_6510 by Bobby Lane, on FlickrIMG_6507 by Bobby Lane, on Flickrupdates to follow
ps thought Ken had grown this from mame size for 30 years in ground, but its actually 15
took a bunch of cuttings and stuck them all in the ground earlier
zelkova stump cuttings by Bobby Lane, on Flickr
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I picked this one up earlier, finally. illl sit with it and decide on the next steps over the coming weeks....going to be a fun project. ive made some reductions already...
updates to follow
ps thought Ken had grown this from mame size for 30 years in ground, but its actually 15
took a bunch of cuttings and stuck them all in the ground earlier
Jeez, how do you find these bloody things.. price?
Great piece of material!
