Field collected trees

[rockm]

I got that there is no calendar date. What I meant was, even if each season is only a month or even less, then that's what it is right?

In the area I want to collect Aspen, there almost isn't even a summer. A long Spring where it can be warm and sunny out, but snow remains on the ground, a summer that lasts about 5 seconds, and then fall again.

First and most importantly —do you have permission to colllect in the areas you are thinking about?
Second find someone who has actually collected in that environment. The. Go with them to observe. You won’t get much useful info online about you specific alpine environment collection questions online. The Utah Bonsai Club in Salt Lake City has a Facebook page with many collected high mountain conifers. You want answers they probably have them. (Clubs sometimes have collecting trips to pre-approved sites. Ask &go)

 

[darzuo]

I got that there is no calendar date. What I meant was, even if each season is only a month or even less, then that's what it is right?

In the area I want to collect Aspen, there almost isn't even a summer. A long Spring where it can be slowly warming up and sunny out, but snow remains on the ground, a summer that lasts about 5 seconds, and then fall again.

I think there's a bit of a confusion here. Trees still experience 4 seasons in a year, they're just not bound by calendar dates. Spring being mentioned here by people as the best time to collect (for most trees) is the time when the buds for deciduous trees are swelling, and conifers are about to push new growth. Trees transfer energy out of their roots towards their foliage as winter dormancy ends, so severing roots causes less harm and the new foliage fuels new root growth. Also, trees need to recover after collection, and collecting in early spring gives trees the most time to recover roots and get good growth before the next winter. This varies quite a lot depending on where you live and the weather conditions for that particular year. This is why people are also saying to take time to learn how to care for trees rather than trying to collect at first, as understanding the way trees behave in different seasons and what that means for your region is paramount for successful collection.

About the pine you took out of the ground, it almost certainly won't make it. You don't want to bare-root conifers in general with bonsai, and certainly not when cutting back roots so heavily. When you're out there collecting, try to get a root ball with fibrous feeder roots close to the trunk and native soil intact (more important for conifers). And remember that > 99% of trees aren't worth collecting; either they are too embedded into the rock to get out alive, or lack fine feeder roots near the trunk, or they don't have the characteristics for great bonsai.

 

[rockm]

I think there's a bit of a confusion here. Trees still experience 4 seasons in a year, they're just not bound by calendar dates. Spring being mentioned here by people as the best time to collect (for most trees) is the time when the buds for deciduous trees are swelling, and conifers are about to push new growth. Trees transfer energy out of their roots towards their foliage as winter dormancy ends, so severing roots causes less harm and the new foliage fuels new root growth. Also, trees need to recover after collection, and collecting in early spring gives trees the most time to recover roots and get good growth before the next winter. This varies quite a lot depending on where you live and the weather conditions for that particular year. This is why people are also saying to take time to learn how to care for trees rather than trying to collect at first, as understanding the way trees behave in different seasons and what that means for your region is paramount for successful collection.

About the pine you took out of the ground, it almost certainly won't make it. You don't want to bare-root conifers in general with bonsai, and certainly not when cutting back roots so heavily. When you're out there collecting, try to get a root ball with fibrous feeder roots close to the trunk and native soil intact (more important for conifers). And remember that > 99% of trees aren't worth collecting; either they are too embedded into the rock to get out alive, or lack fine feeder roots near the trunk, or they don't have the characteristics for great bonsai.

Exactly

 

[IdAu]

I think there's a bit of a confusion here. Trees still experience 4 seasons in a year, they're just not bound by calendar dates. Spring being mentioned here by people as the best time to collect (for most trees) is the time when the buds for deciduous trees are swelling, and conifers are about to push new growth. Trees transfer energy out of their roots towards their foliage as winter dormancy ends, so severing roots causes less harm and the new foliage fuels new root growth. Also, trees need to recover after collection, and collecting in early spring gives trees the most time to recover roots and get good growth before the next winter. This varies quite a lot depending on where you live and the weather conditions for that particular year. This is why people are also saying to take time to learn how to care for trees rather than trying to collect at first, as understanding the way trees behave in different seasons and what that means for your region is paramount for successful collection.

About the pine you took out of the ground, it almost certainly won't make it. You don't want to bare-root conifers in general with bonsai, and certainly not when cutting back roots so heavily. When you're out there collecting, try to get a root ball with fibrous feeder roots close to the trunk and native soil intact (more important for conifers). And remember that > 99% of trees aren't worth collecting; either they are too embedded into the rock to get out alive, or lack fine feeder roots near the trunk, or they don't have the characteristics for great bonsai.

Thanks for the tips! So just read the tree and growth, and if a growth stage is very short, then it's very short.


I was kind of confused with this one. I dug pretty far out to try and collect as much root as possible. But when I went to free it and pull it out, this is all that came up. They must have broke.

 

[darzuo]

I was kind of confused with this one. I dug pretty far out to try and collect as much root as possible. But when I went to free it and pull it out, this is all that came up. They must have broke.

Many trees that grow "out of rocks" actually have root masses deep inside rock crevices where there is a pocket of soil, clay, or something else they can grow in with just a single thick root / trunk connecting it to the tree. These are the types that we consider to be uncollectable, and possibly what this one was.

 

[The Barber]

Keep in mind I havent read all of the replies, so much of this may be redundant.

You need to collect a lot of roots if you want a high success rates with pines, and you cannot bare root them either. Your best bet is to find rock pockets where you can just about pull on the tree and it moves a lot, then find the large roots, and/or tap root that have escaped into a crack and cut only those. When I say a lot of roots, I mean almost all of the trees roots if possible, not just 3 or 6 inches from the base. Survival is your goal, not squeezing it into a bonsai pot. That will be a goal for 2-5 years down the road generally (I have two 1 seed juniper collected from New Mexico that had been in wooden boes for 9 years without a repotting when I bought them), but only after it has produced a more dense root system closer to the base which will allow for a reduction.

You'll need a lot of pumice to pot them in. A course, fine mix (doesn't leave the soil overly airy, and a very fine pine bark helps as well (the decomposition will keep the roots warmer as well which encourages root growth). A wooden box, or plastic tub, with as much drainage drilled into the bottom as possible but still capable of holding soil, that will accommodate all of the roots. The tree needs to be very very very well secured into the container. I cannot repeat this enough how important this step is. You want zero movement of the roots when you move the tree, or a heavy wind blows. Every time it moves it will effect the roots negatively if not.

I wouldn't dig anything nice to start with, the trees that are going to get murdered around your mine are a good place to start as you are going to murder them anyways. Learn all you can about caring for whatever species you plan to collect before hand, and continually study them afterwards. Learning the horticulture side of bonsai is more important than anything you can do.

I know the major tree collectors in the US dig this time of year in the mountains. Vince at Satoyama Bonsai is one of my best friends and he talks to me daily, as well as sends me photos and videos of his collections and uncollectible trees that are amazing...just to make me jealous.

Here's a year and a half of growth...you want this kind of vigor before you repot, or style, or do much of anything.

Photo from when Mauro Stemberger styled it in the spring of 2024, Mauro for size reference. Note the huge tub, this shows you how much roots were collected with the tree.

And yesterday while I was fertilizing this Ponderosa Pine.

This tree is vigorous enough it can handle a root reduction and move to a bonsai pot, and has been in the tub for about 4 years now.

Trees in cracks, or with very few roots like the two below are beautiful to look at, and would make rediculous bonsai, BUT they are not collectible and must be left alone.


What you want are trees in rock pockets, where the roots have been contained in what could best describe as a natural container, or depression in the rock which keeps the roots near the tree, like this Rocky Mountain Juniper.


Speaking of Aspen, he sent me some videos of some gnarly old aspen the other day as well. Keep in mind if you plan to collect aspen. They are well known for sharing root systems with the surrounding aspen, so they may not have roots of their own to survive on.

 

[BrianBay9]

Thanks for the tips! So just read the tree and growth, and if a growth stage is very short, then it's very short.


I was kind of confused with this one. I dug pretty far out to try and collect as much root as possible. But when I went to free it and pull it out, this is all that came up. They must have broke.

This is why I focused on trees in rock pockets, not rock rubble. Try to find trees where the root ball is contained, growing in duff that collects in a rock pocket. If roots can work down through jumbled rock, they will and you'll prob never find the feeder roots.

 

[IdAu]

Keep in mind I havent read all of the replies, so much of this may be redundant.

You need to collect a lot of roots if you want a high success rates with pines, and you cannot bare root them either. Your best bet is to find rock pockets where you can just about pull on the tree and it moves a lot, then find the large roots, and/or tap root that have escaped into a crack and cut only those. When I say a lot of roots, I mean almost all of the trees roots if possible, not just 3 or 6 inches from the base. Survival is your goal, not squeezing it into a bonsai pot. That will be a goal for 2-5 years down the road generally (I have two 1 seed juniper collected from New Mexico that had been in wooden boes for 9 years without a repotting when I bought them), but only after it has produced a more dense root system closer to the base which will allow for a reduction.

You'll need a lot of pumice to pot them in. A course, fine mix (doesn't leave the soil overly airy, and a very fine pine bark helps as well (the decomposition will keep the roots warmer as well which encourages root growth). A wooden box, or plastic tub, with as much drainage drilled into the bottom as possible but still capable of holding soil, that will accommodate all of the roots. The tree needs to be very very very well secured into the container. I cannot repeat this enough how important this step is. You want zero movement of the roots when you move the tree, or a heavy wind blows. Every time it moves it will effect the roots negatively if not.

I wouldn't dig anything nice to start with, the trees that are going to get murdered around your mine are a good place to start as you are going to murder them anyways. Learn all you can about caring for whatever species you plan to collect before hand, and continually study them afterwards. Learning the horticulture side of bonsai is more important than anything you can do.

I know the major tree collectors in the US dig this time of year in the mountains. Vince at Satoyama Bonsai is one of my best friends and he talks to me daily, as well as sends me photos and videos of his collections and uncollectible trees that are amazing...just to make me jealous.

Here's a year and a half of growth...you want this kind of vigor before you repot, or style, or do much of anything.

Photo from when Mauro Stemberger styled it in the spring of 2024, Mauro for size reference. Note the huge tub, this shows you how much roots were collected with the tree.
View attachment 612278
And yesterday while I was fertilizing this Ponderosa Pine.
View attachment 612276
This tree is vigorous enough it can handle a root reduction and move to a bonsai pot, and has been in the tub for about 4 years now.

Trees in cracks, or with very few roots like the two below are beautiful to look at, and would make rediculous bonsai, BUT they are not collectible and must be left alone.
View attachment 612279

View attachment 612280What you want are trees in rock pockets, where the roots have been contained in what could best describe as a natural container, or depression in the rock which keeps the roots near the tree, like this Rocky Mountain Juniper.
View attachment 612281

Speaking of Aspen, he sent me some videos of some gnarly old aspen the other day as well. Keep in mind if you plan to collect aspen. They are well known for sharing root systems with the surrounding aspen, so they may not have roots of their own to survive on.
View attachment 612282
View attachment 612283

Those are amazing!!!

I take it if I build a wooden grow box, it should be large and deep like the tote is? Big enough to fit as much of the roots as you can successfully extract? Unless I find something amazing, which wont be until next year, the ones I snag will be substantially smaller than that beauty.

Bare rooting is when you remove and transport without any soil right? I kept it in it's natural soil until I got home, but had to remove some large rocks when I went to put it into something else and the soil just kind of fell off.


Do you mind sharing your soil mix of pumice and fine pine bark? Do you use this to fill gaps around as much soil makes it home, or do you remove a lot of soil and add that mix as your post care when you get it home and pot it?

Copy on the Aspens. I did read on Empire that you need to find a standalone tree so it's not sharing roots.

 

[rockm]

Fwiw. Grow boxes should be built roughly according to fit the root mass you have collected and the box should be as small as possible. It’s counterintuitive but building a box that is only 1/2 inch or so larger than the root mass is better for the tree

That is because the roots won’t be able to take up moisture efficiently at first and they won’t be growing. Large expanses of soil without roots mean the water that gets in won’t be used and those portions will remain wet. Those conditions will prevent root growth into them and back moisture up against cut roots etc

This “build to fit the root mass” approach means you will get weird shaped boxes. Not unnusual to see long coffin shaped boxes for some collected conifers as that is the way their dominant roots developed along rock tissues etc

 

[The Barber]

Those are amazing!!!

I take it if I build a wooden grow box, it should be large and deep like the tote is? Big enough to fit as much of the roots as you can successfully extract? Unless I find something amazing, which wont be until next year, the ones I snag will be substantially smaller than that beauty.

Bare rooting is when you remove and transport without any soil right? I kept it in it's natural soil until I got home, but had to remove some large rocks when I went to put it into something else and the soil just kind of fell off.


Do you mind sharing your soil mix of pumice and fine pine bark? Do you use this to fill gaps around as much soil makes it home, or do you remove a lot of soil and add that mix as your post care when you get it home and pot it?

Copy on the Aspens. I did read on Empire that you need to find a standalone tree so it's not sharing roots.

No, bare rooting is removing all of the soil, period. Pines depend on symbiotic micorrhiza in the soil (fungus), and bare rooting removes that. I'd leave all of the soil, and protect it from falling off all all costs. Then when you pot it, work the pumice mix into the roots with a chopstick. You can remove a bit of the soil around the outer edge of the roots, but the less you work the roots, the less stress you will induce.

On another note. Deciduous trees are a completely different collecting process and can be treated completely different.

Personally, I would search everything you can on pine collecting, transplanting, and husbandry you can find, and start educating yourself. Start with small trees, and learn to keep them alive in a pot. It isn't easy as it sounds without the proper knowledge.

50 years of working a tree in a pot, and 1 day of being too dry and baking in the heat of the sun and your tree can be gone, wiping away all of that work. Therefore, education on the horticulture involved is highly important. Getting it into a pot is just one bump in the road.

 

[August44]

I don't live to far from you and have been doing this for 5 + years. I have banged my head against the rocks for years trying to get conifers out of the rocks. Fun for awhile, but you finally realize that your killing yourself and the tree. It's not impossible to do, but a team to help you and the needed tools to go along with that are very much needed. All pines are extremely touchy about being collected and bare rooted. Huge % of the time they don't make it. I have learned to find an area where you can dig in fairly good soil and get native soils and roots with the collection.

Do you belong to the club in Boise? Might be a good idea to join up with them.

 

[The Barber]

They dont have to be weird shaped, just rectangular works, and won't necessarily have the tree centered. Just needs to accommodate the root systems till it recovers and produces a rootball that is dense enough to be reduced and still feed the foliage.





Note all of the native soil still in the roots that you can see in this photo.

Areas with open soil are difficult if not impossible to collect pines, the roots spread wide. You want to find trees in ideal collecting situations, once again, rock pockets being the best scenario.

If you have a local bonsai club, please join them, you'll learn so much more.

 

[IdAu]

I don't live to far from you and have been doing this for 5 + years. I have banged my head against the rocks for years trying to get conifers out of the rocks. Fun for awhile, but you finally realize that your killing yourself and the tree. It's not impossible to do, but a team to help you and the needed tools to go along with that are very much needed. All pines are extremely touchy about being collected and bare rooted. Huge % of the time they don't make it. I have learned to find an area where you can dig in fairly good soil and get native soils and roots with the collection.

Do you belong to the club in Boise? Might be a good idea to join up with them.

I'm going to their meeting in a few weeks to check it out and hopefully get some guidance.

I can also just carefully bust out the rock fairly easy avoiding the roots. Or do some miniature drilling and blasting, but I have a feeling that won't be great for the tree lol.

 

[August44]

I'm going to their meeting in a few weeks to check it out and hopefully get some guidance.

I can also just carefully bust out the rock fairly easy avoiding the roots. Or do some miniature drilling and blasting, but I have a feeling that won't be great for the tree lol.

The problem with that is the roots will be all over the place traveling thru small openings, going here and there in search of water and nutrients and you will be lucky to get them in one piece or at all and what soil is attached will probably fall off. Also, the very small feeder roots that might be attached are very fragile and one really has to be careful. Sorry to be negative, but collecting pines in rocky places is tough. Maybe Jon and crew has a way that they have come up with that will help you.

 

[IdAu]

This things definitely gonna die. But better to practice on this than something I cared about. Wiring isn’t as easy as it looks on YouTube lol. If by some miracle it survived, I guess I’d chop it above the top wired branch? (After roots grew)

What gauge wire is required for a trunk like this? The only way to shape it was to use wire as tie down back and forth.

 

[darzuo]

This things definitely gonna die. But better to practice on this than something I cared about. Wiring isn’t as easy as it looks on YouTube lol. If by some miracle it survived, I guess I’d chop it above the top wired branch? (After roots grew)

What gauge wire is required for a trunk like this? The only way to shape it was to use wire as tie down back and forth.

Ok first of all, if you want a tree to survive collection in the future, don't wire it. It may seem like you're not doing much, but bending branches does stress the tree out, and the act of wiring will move the root base and inhibit new roots. As far as wiring goes, keep the wire at more of an angle, somewhere around 45-60 degrees. In order for wire to be effective, it needs to also be anchored to something, usually another branch as in one piece of wire holds two branches together. You should be able to get very tight movement on those thin branches if you wanted to. As far as wiring the trunk, I haven't worked with ponderosa, but if it's like any other pine, you would want something maybe 1/4 -1/3 the diameter of the trunk. Bonsai Mirai has a bonsai beginner series that includes an episode on structural wiring that I would highly recommend. I think it's one of the ones that are posted to youtube as well, so it should be free to watch.

As far as chopping the tree, it really depends on the style of tree you're going for, but horticulturally, you wouldn't want to do foliage removal until you see strong new growth through the duration of a growing season.

By the way what's with the rocks on top? And also did you make sure to build drainage into the box?

 

[August44]

Personally IdAu, I would not try to figure out all this. Joining the club in Boise and learning hands on how to do it right is the way to go. Get someone there to mentor you and you will be way better off than bouncing around looking here, there, and everywhere, all that does is cause confusion and you don't need that.

 

[IdAu]

Ok first of all, if you want a tree to survive collection in the future, don't wire it. It may seem like you're not doing much, but bending branches does stress the tree out, and the act of wiring will move the root base and inhibit new roots. As far as wiring goes, keep the wire at more of an angle, somewhere around 45-60 degrees. In order for wire to be effective, it needs to also be anchored to something, usually another branch as in one piece of wire holds two branches together. You should be able to get very tight movement on those thin branches if you wanted to. As far as wiring the trunk, I haven't worked with ponderosa, but if it's like any other pine, you would want something maybe 1/4 -1/3 the diameter of the trunk. Bonsai Mirai has a bonsai beginner series that includes an episode on structural wiring that I would highly recommend. I think it's one of the ones that are posted to youtube as well, so it should be free to watch.

As far as chopping the tree, it really depends on the style of tree you're going for, but horticulturally, you wouldn't want to do foliage removal until you see strong new growth through the duration of a growing season.

By the way what's with the rocks on top? And also did you make sure to build drainage into the box?

Wow, 1/3 of the trunk diameter would be some huge wire. No wonder I couldn't get it to stay.

I know I shouldn't wire it (or do anything really) if I want it to survive. This tree wasn't going to survive anyway. I wanted to go through the whole process of building a box and getting a feel for anchoring and wiring. I'm glad I did, it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be and I damaged the trunk and branches a bit. Most of the branches were anchored to each other, I just had to hop up or down because they weren't perfectly across from each other.

The rocks on top were rocks that were inside the natural soil that came with it, along with a couple piece of gold ore from the mine. Just decorating it with it's natural habitat.

It didn't drill any draining. I used 3 pieces of fence picket I built the box out of. The gaps in the slats should be enough right?

 

[IdAu]

Personally IdAu, I would not try to figure out all this. Joining the club in Boise and learning hands on how to do it right is the way to go. Get someone there to mentor you and you will be way better off than bouncing around looking here, there, and everywhere, all that does is cause confusion and you don't need that.

Yeah, got that part, and I am. In the meantime it's free to mess around with trees I'm removing anyway.

I didn't notice they had time specific care guides on their site. They say Setp-Oct is the perfect time to collect trees from the wild??

Care — Boise Bonsai Society

www.boisebonsai.com

 

[August44]

Yeah, got that part, and I am. In the meantime it's free to mess around with trees I'm removing anyway.

I didn't notice they had time specific care guides on their site. They say Setp-Oct is the perfect time to collect trees from the wild??

Care — Boise Bonsai Society

www.boisebonsai.com

I would not call fall collecting "perfect". One of the problems with fall collecting is that, in that zone (6 I think), you have to protect newly collected trees from extreme cold, or you can loose them. It's just a hassle IMO. I have done it in areas where there will be to much snow in the spring. Spring is actually a better time and doing it right when trees are budding out. Once you see buds coming and green showing, get with it. Once they start pushing growth, they will just keep going if collected correctly.
You say you're moving. Moving from the Boise area? Nice area but getting very crowded and expensive.