Whilst I agree it isn’t going to happen, and ai agree the person still has a lot to learn, ai would also say, the person giving the advice probably has more to learn.
Explaining origin of bonsai advice
- Thread starter DrTolhur
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Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
How to give less honest advice, sugar coat things, attaboys and participation awards?
Also never going to happen.
If you think I am harsh, you haven't been here long enough to remember a member named smoke. Your join date is March 2022 so you haven't had the smoke experience.
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Potawatomi13
Imperial Masterpiece
Just all the time hereabout
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Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Yea I miss smoke sometimes.Just all the time hereabout
He could be harsh and brutally honest but he was usually spot on. He tried to get people to think as part of his tough love teaching style. He did it to me on more than one occasion. Thinking is too much work for some these days.
I grew up being taught that if the other person didn’t understand what you were saying, you were the dumb one.
BonsaiNaga13
Chumono
In my opinion when someone tells you to study the art it's a comparison to studying primary and secondary colors before learning to paint so the end game isn't just finger painting that only a mother could love. Some would say defoliation isn't necessary and only esthetic but you wouldn't know that for yourself unless you took the time to study. Defoliation and "esthetic" pruning is also done to let more air and light into the tree to avoid spreading disease... You're preforming art with a living subject here and studying those things helps you get to know your subjects. The initial post sounds a bit lazy in my opinion.
KikurageOtomo
Shohin
It becomes difficult to establish clear lines on what is strictly horticultural and what is strictly aesthetic given we are working with living organisms. Double wiring being tight to one another is indeed primarily for the purpose of obfuscating as little as possible but its also providing superior support for the branches being wired, which will help avoid creating health issues. Not committing more than a single great offense a year on a tree is naturally primarily focused on the horticultural aspect but that also has to be tempered with an understanding of what threshold of rough treatment the plant will tolerate. Sure you may be fearful to remove all that excessive, undesirable growth after a fairly harsh re-potting earlier in the season but now you are potentially placed in a situation where you are creating aesthetic flaws in the pursuit of adhering to strict horticultural guidelines.
At least in my estimation, trying to compartmentalize the two subjects in the world of bonsai is a fools errand, the synthesis of the two schools of thought is necessary to elevate something from being a tree placed into a pot into a living piece of art.
At least in my estimation, trying to compartmentalize the two subjects in the world of bonsai is a fools errand, the synthesis of the two schools of thought is necessary to elevate something from being a tree placed into a pot into a living piece of art.
BonsaiNaga13
Chumono
He'd say some stuff that may chap your hide and then he'd show you his work with mame or shohin tridents an it was like Neosporin if ya stuck around that long
rockm
Spuds Moyogi
You say "humour," we say "humor" let's call the whole thing off...Don't get me started on "colour" You Brits seem to like extraneous silent letters that serve no purpose. We 'mericans cut to the chase.
As for separating the Esthetic from the horticultural, there is no "correct" answer. Both are intertwined tightly in bonsai. What might be esthetically pleasing can kill the tree, or weaken it. Every esthetic decision for a tree is tied to what is horticulturally possible with that particular tree.
Bonsai Nut
Nuttier than your average Nut
It seems like we come around to this discussion every couple of years.
All bonsai is horticulture - unless you like dead trees. So the basis of everything is to understand and provide the perfect care and environment for a living organism.
All bonsai is art. Without art, it is simply a stick in a pot. If the stick in the pot just happens to be pleasing to the eye, it is case of luck, versus art. In this case, however, we are creating art with a living organism. Entire books have been written about "what is art" - but in our case we interested in the "rules" of art, and the "goals" of art. At the end of the day you can apply all the "rules" properly, and end up with a boring, static, ugly tree in a generic pot. Yes, you followed the "rules" but the outcome was less than satisfactory. Likewise you can create an interesting, powerful, impactful bonsai tree that breaks a lot of rules. The importance is to understand the rules - and understand when and why to break them.
Sure, you can put a Michelangelo old master oil painting in a blue enamel frame. Maybe you will be ok with it if you really like the color blue. But how will you feel when every person that visits your house winces when they look at your $5 million painting?
All bonsai is horticulture - unless you like dead trees. So the basis of everything is to understand and provide the perfect care and environment for a living organism.
All bonsai is art. Without art, it is simply a stick in a pot. If the stick in the pot just happens to be pleasing to the eye, it is case of luck, versus art. In this case, however, we are creating art with a living organism. Entire books have been written about "what is art" - but in our case we interested in the "rules" of art, and the "goals" of art. At the end of the day you can apply all the "rules" properly, and end up with a boring, static, ugly tree in a generic pot. Yes, you followed the "rules" but the outcome was less than satisfactory. Likewise you can create an interesting, powerful, impactful bonsai tree that breaks a lot of rules. The importance is to understand the rules - and understand when and why to break them.
Sure, you can put a Michelangelo old master oil painting in a blue enamel frame. Maybe you will be ok with it if you really like the color blue. But how will you feel when every person that visits your house winces when they look at your $5 million painting?
Michael P
Omono
People certainly have become touchy on this topic. I am far from an expert, but I have given some casual instruction to beginners. I always try to give a reason for any advice I give by distinguishing between things we do to promote health and vigor and things we do for aesthetic goals. Of course the two are intertwined. But beginners seem to appreciate being told, "don't do that because it will damage or kill the tree" or "don't do that because it violates the artistic rules and most people will think it is unattractive."
GreatLakesBrad
Chumono
I can understand the desire to have a bonsai 'curriculum' that is structured to holistically educate a bonsai 'student' - segmented by art, horticulture, etc. - I think my generation (I'm 35, so an older millennial, and not assuming OP is in the same generation either!) wants answers packaged up quickly and efficiently - the interwebs have provided the ability for us to scale our knowledge quickly and encouraged instant gratification.
That said, I think the beauty of bonsai is that it isn't explicit, or obvious. It's a mystery that you have to dig for. And this forum makes that digging process a whole lot easier than it must have been pre-internet! Having to dig through hundreds of threads, attend in person bonsai club meetings, actually work on trees and discuss with like-minded people - it's a process that allows you to form your own curriculum to an extent, with the foundation of many others who have been willing to share their knowledge.
I'm in a good mood, temps are back up today and it's going to be a sunny beautiful weekend with hopefully many hours in the garden. Happy Friday!
That said, I think the beauty of bonsai is that it isn't explicit, or obvious. It's a mystery that you have to dig for. And this forum makes that digging process a whole lot easier than it must have been pre-internet! Having to dig through hundreds of threads, attend in person bonsai club meetings, actually work on trees and discuss with like-minded people - it's a process that allows you to form your own curriculum to an extent, with the foundation of many others who have been willing to share their knowledge.
I'm in a good mood, temps are back up today and it's going to be a sunny beautiful weekend with hopefully many hours in the garden. Happy Friday!
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
It is always good to explain the whys behind advice.
However to specifically split it out to "Do this because if you dont you could kill the tree" (which BTW many of us will usually state that much at least) or "you could do this but it doesnt relate to the health of the tree"..
What does that mean? Does that mean ignore it?
If it wasnt something that the advisor felt was important or that it could just be ignored, then why bother even giving the advice in the first place?
That said any advice is just that, advice. The reader has the right to decide to follow up or ignore it by their own choosing.
Anyone reading this forum that really wants to learn bonsai shouldnt be expecting to be spoon fed everything.
Bonsai is a topic with A LOT of information and a lot of nuances and "it depends" kinds of things.
The onus on anyone trying to learn is to yes, ask questions but at least be willing to do some of the work to learn as much as you can from reading or going to workshops. watching videos or what ever you can do including working on your own trees.
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Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I was always told that learning cant be given to you, if you aren't willing to take it.
I have actually been an instructor for a few different things over the years (certified first aid and SCUBA instructor, helping fellow bonsai club members with their trees).
I have also trained more than a few of my subordinates at work over the years on a variety of things.
From that experience I have seen first hand that learning is a two way street and takes effort on both the giving and receiving end.
You cant make someone understand what you are talking about if they refuse to even put a modicum of effort to try and learn so they can understand.
The ones that get the most out of it are the ones that put some effort into it
Never have had a problem teaching anyone that wanted to learn and was willing to put in some effort.
I have switched approaches on more than one occasion if the first one didn't catch on.
Spoon feeding someone information doesn't get them to learn it and they typically don't retain it.
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ShadyStump
Imperial Masterpiece
I've brainstormed the idea of publishing a literal pocket guide to bonsai. A smallish quick reference guide that touches on all the basic principles relevant to bonsai, with few details, and almost no judgements made as to the goals of the practitioner. Everything reduced to only the concepts universal to all climates and trees, in a physically small enough format to fit in your tool kit.
Problem: literally EVERYTHING in bonsai is interconnected, and the diversity of plants that could be involved essentially negates anything universal.
It'd still be fun to try, though.
That said, it seems to me that what OP is critiquing are the general teaching skills of the community.
I'll say this on that concept: We are all students here, to one extent or another, and some of us have greater learning skills in some areas than others. Whenever we offer advice, criticism, or even an opinion of any sort, we're also teachers, and excellent teachers who can discern what any given student needs in order to understand something or even make a decision are few.
We can learn to be better teachers, but it's not reasonable to expect it to actually happen.
Problem: literally EVERYTHING in bonsai is interconnected, and the diversity of plants that could be involved essentially negates anything universal.
It'd still be fun to try, though.
That said, it seems to me that what OP is critiquing are the general teaching skills of the community.
I'll say this on that concept: We are all students here, to one extent or another, and some of us have greater learning skills in some areas than others. Whenever we offer advice, criticism, or even an opinion of any sort, we're also teachers, and excellent teachers who can discern what any given student needs in order to understand something or even make a decision are few.
We can learn to be better teachers, but it's not reasonable to expect it to actually happen.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
People also need to remember that none of us are paid to be here.
It is mostly an amateur forum with a few very advanced hobbyists (Adair, Brian, Sergio and others)
We are all here because we love little trees in pots and enjoy discussing them with each other.
A lot of us do spend a lot of time here trying to help others and there is only so many hours in the day.
All of this advice is given for free however, those giving that advice do pay with their time to give that advice.
We do it because we hope that we can help newer folks to avoid the mistakes we made along the way.
We all were new once and we all went through the learning curve. It is ALOT easier now than it used to be due to the internet.
It isn't unreasonable to expect someone to at least put in some effort on their own.
If people are looking for more structured and professional teaching, there are outlets for that such as Ryan Neil, Bjorn, Boon and others that do courses for people to learn but you will have to pay real dollars for it.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
Interesting topic....................again. 
I have read most of it 'till my eyes glazed over.
I really don't have anything to add. I know out in the real world, when people ask about bonsai, I do my very best to dissuade them from pursuing a hobby and especially a career in bonsai.
I hope I don't often come off that way on this site.
I have read most of it 'till my eyes glazed over.I really don't have anything to add. I know out in the real world, when people ask about bonsai, I do my very best to dissuade them from pursuing a hobby and especially a career in bonsai.
I hope I don't often come off that way on this site.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
Why would you dissuade someone from pursuing it as a hobby?Interesting topic....................again.
I really don't have anything to add. I know out in the real world, when people ask about bonsai, I do my very best to dissuade them from pursuing a hobby and especially a career in bonsai.
I hope I don't often come off that way on this site.
penumbra
Imperial Masterpiece
In my experience, those who are still tempted after my efforts to dissuade them, are the ones that are serious. And again in my experience, this is a very slim minority. Like almost everything else in life, most people, in my humble experience, like the idea of a thing more than the thing itself. In bonsai I feel the reverse is true.
Paradox
Marine Bonsologist
I think most people don't understand the time and the patience it takes, both of which many people have in short supply. I don't try to dissuade people per se but I am up front and honest about it and they can decide for themselves if it is a hobby for them.
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