Do you have to wait until spring to collect yamadori?

[Bonsai_Bentley]

I know that the general guideline is to wait until late-winter/early spring to collect yamadori. I don't fully understand why that's the case. Especially for dormant deciduous species of trees. Flame away!

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

There are no hard and fast rules, local climate and your aftercare are key factors in success. Also species plays a role.

You are in coastal South Carolina, a very mild climate (you have palm trees) compared to mine. You may very well be able to get away with collecting anytime from middle of autumn through to early spring. But then again you might not. Only way to "know" is to try it. Take notes and keep track of your successes and failures.

Aftercare is critical. If you protect your trees from root getting frozen after collecting you have more winter success. Do you just plop them in the ground in the back yard? Do you put them in a greenhouse? Cold storage between 32 F and 40 F? It all makes a difference.

Also, species matters. You might be able to collect elms no problem and have major trouble with beech. Local pines might be more amendable than others. Bald Cypress, dormant collecting can work. Maples, may be more problematic. Similar magnolia.
So what you collect makes a difference.

You need to try, take notes, and try again. Nobody ever has 100% success rate at collecting. But if you are doing it well, you can get your success rate above 70%. So get out there and try it. & take notes, for yourself, because once you collect more than a dozen trees, you will never remember what you did to which and when. Remember, aftercare, and different tricks you try in aftercare are key to good survival.

 

[Tbrshou]

I know that the general guideline is to wait until late-winter/early spring to collect yamadori. I don't fully understand why that's the case. Especially for dormant deciduous species of trees. Flame away!

Im still new to bonsai and im dying to see what replies u get. Ive collected 4 uninteresting trees this fall just to test fall collection. What im already seeing is that its just too much maintenance trying to keep newly collected material safe from freezing as well as cool enough to stay dormant.(I have a polytunnel) Stressed trees and stressed me already seeing that its not worth it. Check out the daytime temp today in the tunnel right now

 

[Warpig]

I agree with leo as well as, during the winter months is when most trees pull their engery back to the roots to store till spring. If you collect the tree during this time and have to leave alot of the roots behind, you are leaving alot of the trees energy in the ground that it will need come spring.

 

[leatherback]

If youhave cold winters, the roots will not recover / respond untill the growing season starts. As such, your tree sits still till spring. BEtter to leave it in the ground untill then, unless you can provide bottom heat (Which is what e.g., Tickly Tony in the UK does)

 

[Zach Smith]

I agree with leo as well as, during the winter months is when most trees pull their engery back to the roots to store till spring. If you collect the tree during this time and have to leave alot of the roots behind, you are leaving alot of the trees energy in the ground that it will need come spring.

This is not accurate. I have collected many hundreds of (deciduous) trees in the dead of winter and left behind almost all of the roots (since they can't be collected anyway). Trees don't transport all of their stored food to the roots in winter; if they did, we could not collect any successfully since they wouldn't be able to push new buds in spring.

 

[AJL]

It all depends on the local climate and what species - also the size, location and species you want to collect . You could wait till early spring but here in UK most commercial tree nurseries start lifting their bare root deciduous field grown trees starting in late October onwards and if theyre not being planted on a landscape scheme immediately their roots are packed with damp straw , bagged then stored in a cold shed in bundles till planting time, Alternatively dig a trench and heel them into the ground till planting time.
The most critical thing is to protect roots from drying out. Providing you are collecting trees suited to your climate zone its really not much maintenance trying to keep newly collected material safe as they have evolved to withstand your winters !!

 

[rockm]

I know that the general guideline is to wait until late-winter/early spring to collect yamadori. I don't fully understand why that's the case. Especially for dormant deciduous species of trees. Flame away!

The reason to wait a bit (and this is a relative thing to local climate--I'd bet people start collecting in S.C. in early Feb.) is the way trees work. In general, trees store resources in their roots in the fall and winter. The sap begins transferring those resources back up the tree in late winter early spring. Think maple syrup. Maples trees are "tapped" in February as the sap rises.

Removing those roots in the early winter deprives the tree of stored resources. That may kill the tree outright, or slow its recovery...

To add to that, a dormant tree with major root wounds collected in early winter sits around for months before it begins healing those wounds. in that time, rot can set in, roots die back, again killing the tree or slowing its ability to recover. In other words, collectible trees should sit for as long as possible before having their roots cut.

 

[Zach Smith]

It's important not to misunderstand the movement of sap as trees near break of dormancy with the location of stored sugars in winter. All cells require energy all the time to remain alive. The "hibernation" metabolism is still active metabolism, it's just very very slow. Without energy in the form of starch/sugar, no matter where it is in the tree, the cell dies. Since there's no active production of sugar during winter, the cells throughout the tree must have stored reserves or they die. As for tapping trees to recover sap for syrup production, the sap can flow either from the roots to the branches and crown or the other direction. So the latter process would not work if there were no starch/sugar in the above ground tissues of the tree.

 

[Zach Smith]

Here's a real-world example of how a tree can survive with most of its roots cut away. Bear in mind that the root mass of a tree is much farther ranging than the above ground part, so in this case almost all of the root mass is literally unavailable to provide resources for spring budding.

January 2, 2016 - dead of winter for us.



Budburst where I am is generally in mid to late March, though it can go into early April sometimes depending on species and the weather that year.

April 6, 2016 - probably a few weeks after budburst



So this tree was robbed of its "root resources" when I collected it. Yet it survived and thrived. How is that possible? Because every cell throughout the tree had stored reserves which activated when temperatures warmed and the chemical signal to break dormancy was triggered.

 

[BrianBay9]

In a mild climate like yours and mine there are many trees that you can successfully collect now. I start in December with trees I know to be rugged and easy to recover. I've had success with Pyracantha (firethorn), Ulmus parvifolia (Chinese elm), boxwood, olive. You might note that these are also mostly evergreen non-conifers. This winter I'm trying some coast live oak (Q. agrifolia), collecting some now (Dec 14), some in January and some in February to see if the timing makes a difference.

 

[Zach Smith]

Everyone has to figure out when they can collect trees in their own area. I can't imagine what it would be like to live where the ground is frozen solid through April. Down here it's just wet and mushy, which allows for easier sawing.

 

[canoeguide]

Never forget that there is very little non-emergency work that cannot be put off. Trees left in the ground will not get worse by spending more time in the ground.

 

[bonsaichile]

Everyone has to figure out when they can collect trees in their own area. I can't imagine what it would be like to live where the ground is frozen solid through April. Down here it's just wet and mushy, which allows for easier sawing.

To be fair, Zach, you don't have a real winter. So expressions like, "in the dead of winter" can be a bit misleading or taken the wrong way by more inexperienced people.

 

[Zach Smith]

To be fair, Zach, you don't have a real winter. So expressions like, "in the dead of winter" can be a bit misleading or taken the wrong way by more inexperienced people.

Ha! We're so used to mild winters down here we freeze to death when it gets below about 40. I guess it's important to just emphasize that trees don't transport all of their food reserves down to the roots for winter, regardless of where they are. That's not how cell metabolism works. Dormant buds are still biologically active, as are the cells inside the bark of the tree all the way to where the heartwood begins. Biological activity requires food.

 

[0soyoung]

I guess it's important to just emphasize that trees don't transport all of their food reserves down to the roots for winter, regardless of where they are.

I agree. And what you are saying is consistent with long-standing scientific findings.

Every living cell has a vacuole. Carbohydrates are stored as starch grains in vacuoles.
Living cells are distributed throughout the tree.
Energy is stored throughout the tree.

Trees are not potatoes.

 

[Zach Smith]

I agree. And what you are saying is consistent with long-standing scientific findings.

Every living cell has a vacuole. Carbohydrates are stored as starch grains in vacuoles.
Living cells are distributed throughout the tree.
Energy is stored throughout the tree.

Trees are not potatoes.

I appreciate the feedback, but I think you've opened up a can of worms by mentioning potatoes. We're bound to see a bonsai potato plant in 2020

 

[Silentrunning]

I appreciate the feedback, but I think you've opened up a can of worms by mentioning potatoes. We're bound to see a bonsai potato plant in 2020

If we do, I’m sure Nigel Saunders will make a video about how to clip and grow one.

 

[Johnathan]

Just to piggy back on what was said about collecting by @Zach Smith here is a video from Mauro Stemberger kind of explaining the process. No matter how many times I watch, I can't make out the word he uses to describe the section of the tree that shoots the new fine roots.

It's at the 11 minute mark.

 

[Shibui]

I'm another grower in a 'warm' part of the world. Winter minimums get a few deg below freezing but not every night so ground is never frozen.
Advice here usually follows the 'dig and root prune just before buds burst' but I routinely dig and root prune trees from mid winter here with very few losses. This comes from looking at commercial bare root tree production and supply to nurseries which follows the same lines here as AJL mentions for UK. I also root prune very much like the example Zach Smith has posted.

I also collect, transplant and repot native Australian plants in late spring and early summer when they are in full growth mode. This appears to be the optimum time to reduce roots on Aussie natives which often die when roots are cut in cooler months. It appears there may be different times for different species but I think the window of opportunity is far wider than many allow for.

There is a great deal of misinformation and half truths passed off as fact when talking about plants.