Did I take off too many roots?

[C-Jewel]

Update....

leafing out great! I didn’t repot this year, gonna give it all of this year and repot next spring.

still contemplating making another cut to take off the leader to start the taper

 

[C-Jewel]

Grew well last year, still have some work to do healing over the big scar. Should I cut the thicker leader and let the smaller one on the right take over? Or leave it be until scar heals?

 

[0soyoung]

IMO, growing over a wound is the same game as thickening a stem = you want all the foliage above that you can get. There is also the thing that a stem won't thicken much until the stem above is nearly as thick.

Frankly, you should think about what you would do when this wound is in back. Unless you want to have an uro, this wound will never be something anyone wants to look at, even id it is grown over. You might also note that from this (pictured) viewpoint the tree is definitely leaning away in fright = unfriendly.

 

[C-Jewel]

IMO, growing over a wound is the same game as thickening a stem = you want all the foliage above that you can get. There is also the thing that a stem won't thicken much until the stem above is nearly as thick.

Frankly, you should think about what you would do when this wound is in back. Unless you want to have an uro, this wound will never be something anyone wants to look at, even id it is grown over. You might also note that from this (pictured) viewpoint the tree is definitely leaning away in fright = unfriendly.

Gotcha, well this was my first chop on a big tree. I guess I’ll just keep at it and try and make it something. In the end, I’m surprised the tree survived, I’ll continue to post updates.

thanks for the advice.

 

[Shibui]

I agree that the best way to close a wound is to allow plenty of growth above.
Unfortunately many inexperienced growers seem to believe that large chops are a good thing and healing such a scar is no problem. I tried that many times long ago and ecame frustrated at the subsequent long process to heal and grow new trunk. Now prefer a series of smaller chops and grow to produce the trunk size. If that grow phase takes a couple of years longer so be it because the subsequent heal and develop taper usually turns out to be much shorter than required for a single larger chop and taper is usually much better.

From experience, chopping the thicker leader now will only add to the scar. I'd be trying to find a way to use the lower section of that trunk as the next trunk section as it will be much quicker to achieve smooth taper to the lower stump and will help heal the existing scar quicker. Look at chopping that thicker one above the first node at some future stage if either of the small shoots growing from the first node above the current chop would make a good bend and direction for a continuation of the trunk.
Agree with @0soyoung that the other side may be a better 'front' if that's possible so the current scar is at the back of the tree. Layering shoiuld give you the opportunity to change the angle of surface roots if the current rootage won't allow that change of trunk.

 

[C-Jewel]

IMO, growing over a wound is the same game as thickening a stem = you want all the foliage above that you can get. There is also the thing that a stem won't thicken much until the stem above is nearly as thick.

Frankly, you should think about what you would do when this wound is in back. Unless you want to have an uro, this wound will never be something anyone wants to look at, even id it is grown over. You might also note that from this (pictured) viewpoint the tree is definitely leaning away in fright = unfriendly.

@osoyoung thoughts on this one? I chopped last year but left in ground.
With this one I did a flat cut. Has a bunch of options. Was about to dig up and put in a anderson flat on a board today.
Just unsure which direction to go. Would love some insight

 

[0soyoung]

The point of doing a flat cut is that pretty much regardless of how one does it, it will need another cut = so why fuss, just cut it (as you did). As you can see, the cambium died back some over the winter, so now the tree has defined a line between where it will sustain itself versus it won't. Clean up the chop by cutting off that stump on a line that matches the edge of live cambium and immediately apply a moisture barrier covering (cut paste, putty, wood glue, damp moss, polyethylene film, ..., whatever you use). This might be easier to do with the trunk is firmly held in the ground.

You've got a sequence of short internodes on the current leader, anyone of which is a possible point to make some side to side movement in the trunk you are creating. IOW, I think you should cut back that leader now. You could even choose one of that pair of stems going back over the chop. This would mean creating a pine-like zig zag trunk when seen from the left or right at an angle where you only see one edge of your trimmed up chop (which will then look like trunk taper). Of course you could still plan on one of these views being the eventual front and instead get fid of those two stems going back into the tree (good pruning practice). Alternatively, the front would be closer to a position opposite the view of your pix. Then you have the beginnings of a trunk that comes toward the viewer. I think you have an opportunity to go for a sumo with this trunk which will require a broad spreading nebari. But, it is hard for me to tell the length of the first trunk section. The second trunk section ought to be something like half that length (1/2 to 2/3). You just need to decide on what you are aiming to produce and then make the cut.

The only other thing I have to suggest I'd that you at least eliminate the middle of branch trios on the lowest trunk as this will minimize knob formation. You might want to give some thought to how they will play in your design vision. Many might eliminate them, but I think they have an important role to play in keeping the back of the tree alive. Those toward the front you will want to be thicker (let them grow to thicken) whereas those that will be in back being thinner will help to give the feeling of depth (fake perspective).

Ramble, ramble, ramble, ...


This is business. You make a 5-year plan and modify it monthly as things develop.

 

[C-Jewel]

The point of doing a flat cut is that pretty much regardless of how one does it, it will need another cut = so why fuss, just cut it (as you did). As you can see, the cambium died back some over the winter, so now the tree has defined a line between where it will sustain itself versus it won't. Clean up the chop by cutting off that stump on a line that matches the edge of live cambium and immediately apply a moisture barrier covering (cut paste, putty, wood glue, damp moss, polyethylene film, ..., whatever you use). This might be easier to do with the trunk is firmly held in the ground.

You've got a sequence of short internodes on the current leader, anyone of which is a possible point to make some side to side movement in the trunk you are creating. IOW, I think you should cut back that leader now. You could even choose one of that pair of stems going back over the chop. This would mean creating a pine-like zig zag trunk when seen from the left or right at an angle where you only see one edge of your trimmed up chop (which will then look like trunk taper). Of course you could still plan on one of these views being the eventual front and instead get fid of those two stems going back into the tree (good pruning practice). Alternatively, the front would be closer to a position opposite the view of your pix. Then you have the beginnings of a trunk that comes toward the viewer. I think you have an opportunity to go for a sumo with this trunk which will require a broad spreading nebari. But, it is hard for me to tell the length of the first trunk section. The second trunk section ought to be something like half that length (1/2 to 2/3). You just need to decide on what you are aiming to produce and then make the cut.

The only other thing I have to suggest I'd that you at least eliminate the middle of branch trios on the lowest trunk as this will minimize knob formation. You might want to give some thought to how they will play in your design vision. Many might eliminate them, but I think they have an important role to play in keeping the back of the tree alive. Those toward the front you will want to be thicker (let them grow to thicken) whereas those that will be in back being thinner will help to give the feeling of depth (fake perspective).

Ramble, ramble, ramble, ...


This is business. You make a 5-year plan and modify it monthly as things develop.

Thanks for the details approach

 

[ajm55555]

Grew well last year, still have some work to do healing over the big scar.

"The Force is strong with this one!"

 

[dbonsaiw]

Awesome that this guy pulled through. Always good to be conservative, but threads like this demonstrate just how hardy trees can be.

 

[C-Jewel]

Update…..
Well, I pulled the tree out after a few years. If I learned anything it is I should have taken more of the big side root, or flattened the bottom more.
The board did its job! I have great flat roots all around, but there is a big gap under one side.

I am going to accept it, learn from it, and continue on my journey with this one. At the end of the day, the big scar and gap under one side of the nebari is going to have to tie in somehow. I’m gonna try my best to make it something one day, I may never show this tree but that’s ok.

I have zero training, I’m not part of a club, but I am part of Bonsai Nut! I hope this experience will help others and also hope to continue to learn here.

Thank you to everyone who has helped my journey and I’ll continue to take any advice, good or bad. That’s part of life…. Live and you learn

 

[C-Jewel]

More pics

 

[Shibui]

The board did its job! I have great flat roots all around, but there is a big gap under one side.

Maybe the board is not the entire reason. Have you checked similar results without a board or is this a one off that you are jumping to conclusions from?
I get the same results just with root pruning, no board needed.

 

[C-Jewel]

Maybe the board is not the entire reason. Have you checked similar results without a board or is this a one off that you are jumping to conclusions from?
I get the same results just with root pruning, no board needed.

Go back and look at my first post…. If I wouldn’t have used a board there’s no was these roots would have done this.

 

[Shibui]

Go back and look at my first post…. If I wouldn’t have used a board there’s no was these roots would have done this.

I have followed this from the start so I'm aware of all the steps you followed.
Initially you seemed to be in a panic about it surviving. From the start I said it would probably survive because I do have extensive experience. Now you seem to be telling us you have enough experience to categorically say the board is the reason for a better nebari.
I've root pruned thousands of trees for bonsai over 30 years and I know that root pruning is the major factor in producing great lateral roots for great nebari. I believe the initial root pruning you were so worried about is the major reason for the new root mass, not the board. I know that because I see it every year in the trees I produce for sale but if you choose to believe, after just a single trial, that the board is the reason that's fine with me.

 

[dbonsaiw]

If I wouldn’t have used a board there’s no was these roots would have done this.

Total newbie here, so I’m still limping along with this hobby. Hardest part of this hobby is the timeline between what we do and actually seeing the effects of what we do. There are also countless variables that go into the finished trees we are trying to develop. Personally, I believe it would be nearly impossible for me to develop a tree A-Z at this point with as little set back as possible without leaning on the experts here. I simply don’t know what i dont know. And it doesn’t take long to figure out who on this site has the knowledge needed - in fact, they share it freely. There are those here who are sharing decades of experience, after working with literally thousands of trees.
“If I have seen further, it is by standing on the shoulders of giants”. Sir Isaac Newton.

 

[C-Jewel]

C-Jewel, I’m curious, what’s the ultimate end goal here, and with the tree? If you check my posts, which are few, I give a shit less what another thinks. I’m sort of an asshole, though my knowledge serves me, and I typically lurk, not asking questions. You on the other had asked for help, got it, then came off as a complete know it all asshole. When called on it, you point to the very thing Shibui wa s listening to and following. In other words — you had an experienced guide in your corner, ready to pounce ti help you.
Listen you just learned to walk without falling, your not ready to teach the teachers. So with that said:
Shibui, whom I never spoke to, would be better served for tossing questions at, not attitude. Ever check any of the info he gives freely? I done a couple projects incorporating his very steps given. Now I’m not going to bow down and worship his ground, but I certainly am not going to out and act as if I hit a level above him either.
Ffs, pointing him to read the whole procedure over again, was like saying he knew shit, and just stepped into your post. The very guy who tried to get you to put your tools down, stop crying, encourage you, and lead you

By the way, here’s some thought for you to look at. I know you state 10 years, but if you keep pissing off those coming to aid, you may need to shorten your time zone some.

I’m off to slap someone silly with stupidness. Later.

C-Jewel, I’m curious, what’s the ultimate end goal here, and with the tree? If you check my posts, which are few, I give a shit less what another thinks. I’m sort of an asshole, though my knowledge serves me, and I typically lurk, not asking questions. You on the other had asked for help, got it, then came off as a complete know it all asshole. When called on it, you point to the very thing Shibui wa s listening to and following. In other words — you had an experienced guide in your corner, ready to pounce ti help you.
Listen you just learned to walk without falling, your not ready to teach the teachers. So with that said:
Shibui, whom I never spoke to, would be better served for tossing questions at, not attitude. Ever check any of the info he gives freely? I done a couple projects incorporating his very steps given. Now I’m not going to bow down and worship his ground, but I certainly am not going to out and act as if I hit a level above him either.
Ffs, pointing him to read the whole procedure over again, was like saying he knew shit, and just stepped into your post. The very guy who tried to get you to put your tools down, stop crying, encourage you, and lead you

By the way, here’s some thought for you to look at. I know you state 10 years, but if you keep pissing off those coming to aid, you may need to shorten your time zone some.

I’m off to slap someone silly with stupidness. Later.

Whoa , calm down sir. I wasn’t giving any attitude to anyone, and if you or anyone else read that wrong I apologize.
I sent that post early in the morning trying to get my kid off to school.

I’ve done nothing but thank everyone for all knowledge given… that post wasn’t meant the way you took it nor was I trying to teach a teacher. thanks for you comment tho

 

[cwilhelm]

Unfortunately many inexperienced growers seem to believe that large chops are a good thing and healing such a scar is no problem. I tried that many times long ago and ecame frustrated at the subsequent long process to heal and grow new trunk. Now prefer a series of smaller chops and grow to produce the trunk size.

How does that work, in practice? I have read conflicting things about whether lower sections of a trunk will continue to thicken appreciably after chop and regrowth. Intuitively it does make sense to me that a series of small chops would lead to smoother taper and easier-to-close wounds than a couple large ones, but can you also expect to add reasonable girth below the cuts?

Also, wow, this thread got spicy in a hurry.

 

[leatherback]

How does that work, in practice? I have read conflicting things about whether lower sections of a trunk will continue to thicken appreciably after chop and regrowth. Intuitively it does make sense to me that a series of small chops would lead to smoother taper and easier-to-close wounds than a couple large ones, but can you also expect to add reasonable girth below the cuts?

Also, wow, this thread got spicy in a hurry.

The process of thickening is based on, in general, the amount of sap pushed up and down the trunk, where each year a new set of transport routes are build and the pressure/balance needs, lets say, tensile strength needed.

If you chop, you remove a large part of the foliage and you remove a long whip from the top so both processes are reduced: Bottom growth is reduced.

But lets ignore all this for now, and just look at the basic accumulation of wood..:

Say you chop a 2 inch trunk. The "cut surface area" is about 3.1 square inch (Area of a circle with 1 inch diameter).
Say you grow a new leader to one inch thick. That will have a "cut surface area" of 0.78540 square inch (Area of a circle 1 inch diameter).

In principle, one could imagine that that are is added to the original stump too: 3.1 + 0.79 ~= 3.9 square inch.

If you solve that for diameter, you get a circle of roughly 2.22 inch.
So only 0.22 inch thicker.

Does this make sense?

 

[leatherback]

Also, wow, this thread got spicy in a hurry.

Yeah, the forum is a troll richer.