Cost efficiencies of mixes

[Bonsai Nut]

Sorry. Disagree.

You, mein Freund, are an exception to the rule And a good example of the most perfect rule of all: no rule is perfect

 

[leatherback]

You, mein Freund, are an exception to the rule And a good example of the most perfect rule of all: no rule is perfect

Buuut.. I did do a trial comparison. Top: My substrate. Bottom, akadama. After growing seedlings for a growingseason in these substrates. Will do a little writeup one of these days.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Bnut, I really don't understand why my comments are considered the "classic straw man argument". If a person wants exceptional trees, he can use what is considered the best soil. I just want trees that please me and the soil I use accomplishes that. Is there something flawed with that thinking?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Bnut, I really don't understand why my comments are considered the "classic straw man argument". If a person wants exceptional trees, he can use what is considered the best soil. I just want trees that please me and the soil I use accomplishes that. Is there something flawed with that thinking?

When people come here to ask for advice, they are seeking best practices. Not most expensive practices. When people ask about repotting or trimming roots or air-layering or developing ramification, they are asking for advice based on the sum total of experience from people who have gone before. The saddest expression I hear when it comes to this art form is that after 15 years there are two different types of bonsai artisans. People with 15 years of experience, and people with 1 year of experience that they have repeated 15 times. It is the single most common mistake and one that I see over and over again. People get good advice... and they ignore it. People see what pros do... and they ignore them. And worst of all is when beginners ignore the advice WITHOUT EVEN TRYING IT. They just discount it out of hand... because they want to save $20?

I'm not sure what you want? Good soil mixes are not for people seeking perfection. They are for people seeking strong, healthy trees being kept in containerized environments. Without strong healthy trees, nothing else matters. You won't get good ramification, you won't grow strong branches, wounds won't heal, trunks won't thicken, roots won't develop and spread... None of the other advice will matter because it won't work on a weak unhealthy tree. Everything you do should be focused on making your trees as healthy as possible, unless what you're saying is you're happy looking at a weak, unhealthy tree, because that's the way you like them.

Is there some wiggle room with components? Can you swap one inorganic piece for another that performs similarly? Sure. But it is important to note that people usually start with what they know works... and see if they can do as well or better at a lower cost - or for some other benefit that yields healthier, stronger trees. That is very different than someone starting at square one and saying "what is the cheapest soil I can use that won't kill my trees?" If you want to keep your trees in potting soil in pond baskets because it makes you happy, great! And I mean that! But if you have decided you are going to go that path, why come here and ask for advice? What does it matter if you have already decided what you are going to do, and no one will convince you otherwise?

I posted a video from Ryan Neil on soil. Did you watch it? Or do you already know better? This whole conversation makes me sad.

 

[yenling83]

So I am placing my somewhat developed Bonsai or Pre Bonsai (btw what is the technical difference? Lol) into 1 gallon pots with Miracle-Gro Cactus Mix and about 1/3 - 1/2 Pumice. Suddenly I started wondering if I could use a more inexpensive option for one gallons to grow out. Does this mix give a growth boost that makes it worthwhile? I mean isn’t that the point of a more pricey mix? And by the way, is a totally inorganic mix better for one gallon, and if so any other component moderate priced like pumice? Or is it possible the miracle gro cactus mix is good for growth rate in this size?

Which leads me to ask about this. I read on a thread of the forum that at some point if you are growing a tree large, you can simply use very inexpensive compost with wood chips. And I imagine you’d use something like Microlife fertilizer for this. At what size pot can you start this mix? I’m using cactus mix and pumice for everything through one gallon. I use Miracle Gro potting soil in a couple two gallons.

Am I burning money using the miracle gro cactus mix and pumice for one gallon, or the potting soil for two gallon? And when, at what pot size, do I start with compost, wood chips and Microlife (if this is advisable, generally)

Thanks all, in advance

My vote is for pure sifted pumice. Trees grow great in it and you can buy by the yard.

 

[Joe Dupre']

There is a whole range of conditions between perfection and weak, dying trees. Mine happen to be in great, thriving shape in my "inferior" soil. I have about 60 very healthy trees at various stages of developement. Not saying or recommending that newcomers should not use the best soil that they can afford. I just point out that they can get very good success from easier to access components. Everyone has their bonsai masters they believe in and that's great. I happen to subsicribe to our own Walter Pall's methods. His 1000 plus trees are testamony that you don't necessarily need akadama and pumice to grow nice trees.

ONE growing season from a stump.

 

[Coppersdad]

LOL I don't think there is a disagreement. Ryan, Boon, Bjorn... they all agree. I think there is a huge difference between ignorance and disagreement. I don't see Bill Valavanis using Oil Dry, Turface or cat litter If akadama cost the same as Oil Dry, which would people use?

In every soil war thread I read, it is always about people trying to save money... and arguing that their alternative is "as good as" accepted best practice. So consider the source. If their trees are as good or better than Ryan Neil's, and soil results better than Boon's, I would listen to what they had to say. Otherwise, I think it is wise to be skeptical

Remember my thread about trying to learn what the pros do - and follow it exactly? Only when you master what they do and can get similar results should you start to experiment. Don't start your bonsai journey by trying to relearn what other people already know.

I am always amused when I read or hear an absolute statement concerning bonsai soil. Things like, "That won't work!" or "Your wrong!" taught me early on to never make a comment on anyone's choice of soil or soil mix. There are folks on limited budgets and some living in certain geographic locations who just don't have the choices that some of the rest of us might.
Yet, they do produce magnificent trees.
Seems to me, the result is what is important.
Any argument is a waste of breath.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Any argument is a waste of breath.

In that case, don't wire your trees. You'll save money, and I'm sure you'll find someone, somewhere, who has a nice tree they don't wire.

I'm not arguing. I'm simply stating best practice. Do whatever you want - they're your trees. But if someone comes to this site looking for a recommendation for what kind of soil they should use for a bonsai in a pot, I'm going to lead with the rule... and not the 1000 exceptions.

The majority of times a beginner comes to this site it is because they are having trouble with their first tree. And the majority of trouble is due to bad soil or bad watering practice. How do we know it is bad soil if anyone can use anything they want? Rhetorical question... because it has been answered so many times. In fact, I'll bet if I posed as a beginner right now and asked you what soil I should use with my potted Japanese black pine, you would give me an answer that didn't include potting soil.

 

[Joe Dupre']

The original poster was inquiring about growing out trees in one to two gallon pots and using something less expensive than pumice. That's the question I responded to. Funny how some people just can't help but complicate things. Simple question .......simple answer.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

LOL I don't think there is a disagreement. Ryan, Boon, Bjorn... they all agree. I think there is a huge difference between ignorance and disagreement. I don't see Bill Valavanis using Oil Dry, Turface or cat litter If akadama cost the same as Oil Dry, which would people use?

In every soil war thread I read, it is always about people trying to save money... and arguing that their alternative is "as good as" accepted best practice. So consider the source. If their trees are as good or better than Ryan Neil's, and soil results better than Boon's, I would listen to what they had to say. Otherwise, I think it is wise to be skeptical

Remember my thread about trying to learn what the pros do - and follow it exactly? Only when you master what they do and can get similar results should you start to experiment. Don't start your bonsai journey by trying to relearn what other people already know.

I’ve watched the video 4 times to date. Excellent video. Does anyone know how his experiments with DE have turned out?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I’ve watched the video 4 times to date. Excellent video. Does anyone know how his experiments with DE have turned out?

I have not seen anything. One thing I would be concerned about would be that all "DE" is not the same, depending on where it comes from and how it is processed. I ran into this problem when I spoke to the manufacturer of Turface about obtaining larger particle sizes. They manufacture the product in several locations and use different bases, depending on what is locally available. May or may not be an issue, but I would definitely test first to make sure the product performs the way you want. I couldn't find a DE that was the right particle size and didn't break down with use... but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

I'm currently exploring an option to use fired NC red clay from a local source. Same deal - might be an option for locals, but the cost to ship it west would be prohibitive.

 

[MapleLeaf]

I have not seen anything. One thing I would be concerned about would be that all "DE" is not the same, depending on where it comes from and how it is processed. I ran into this problem when I spoke to the manufacturer of Turface about obtaining larger particle sizes. They manufacture the product in several locations and use different bases, depending on what is locally available. May or may not be an issue, but I would definitely test first to make sure the product performs the way you want. I couldn't find a DE that was the right particle size and didn't break down with use... but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

I'm currently exploring an option to use fired NC red clay from a local source. Same deal - might be an option for locals, but the cost to ship it west would be prohibitive.

I'm a local. I am in!
1. We shall call it AkaCarolina
2. Bag it in small bags.
3. Ship it all over the world
4. Profit !!?!

 

[chuckwc1]

Go to OC Farm Supply and get yourself some 40 lb bags of pumice for about $12 each. Tell them you are a member of the Orange County Bonsai Society and you get a discount.

Go to Green Thumb and get yourself some pine bark micro nuggets. If my memory serves me correctly, they stock both mini and micro sizes - you want the micro. They should be very small pieces - about 1/2" and less.

Add the pine bark to the pumice at about a 10%/90% to 20%/80% blend. Finished!

Avoid adding any potting soil or similar organic product to your bonsai soil that will clog the soil. If you water your bonsai and the water doesn't immediately pass through the top of your soil and flow out through the drain holes (leaving wet soil particles behind) your soil is too dense / clogged.

Nut, how often in the heat of summer do you need to water your trees? I'm planning on using that recipe, but I'm concerned that the more thirsty of my deciduous and tropicals might dry out if I can only water once per day. Was thinking of maybe bumping up the bark ratio to 40%, or making the mix for those thirsty trees equal parts pumice, pine bark, and DE.

 

[19Mateo83]

I have not seen anything. One thing I would be concerned about would be that all "DE" is not the same, depending on where it comes from and how it is processed. I ran into this problem when I spoke to the manufacturer of Turface about obtaining larger particle sizes. They manufacture the product in several locations and use different bases, depending on what is locally available. May or may not be an issue, but I would definitely test first to make sure the product performs the way you want. I couldn't find a DE that was the right particle size and didn't break down with use... but that doesn't mean one doesn't exist.

I'm currently exploring an option to use fired NC red clay from a local source. Same deal - might be an option for locals, but the cost to ship it west would be prohibitive.

How are these experiments with fired NC red clay going? Inquiring minds would like to know

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Nut, how often in the heat of summer do you need to water your trees? I'm planning on using that recipe, but I'm concerned that the more thirsty of my deciduous and tropicals might dry out if I can only water once per day. Was thinking of maybe bumping up the bark ratio to 40%, or making the mix for those thirsty trees equal parts pumice, pine bark, and DE.

In Orange County with hot summer dry air, I would water twice daily. Note that in the OC we wouldn't get a drop of rain from March to perhaps November or December, so 100% of the water had to be provided artificially. If you get a fair amount of summer rain, your watering needs will be much lighter. Now that I am in NC I water less than half as often - once per day in summer, and perhaps once per week in winter, as needed. Much more rain and humidity here.

Note this mix is what I used for nursery / grow-out containers. In ceramic bonsai pots your rate of evaporation will be less, and use of pine bark as a water reservoir will be less important. I also used pine bark in my grow-out mix because it is a natural soil acidifier. Our water was alkaline and I used pine bark and acid fertilizer to try to keep the pH down.

 

[Coppersdad]

In that case, don't wire your trees. You'll save money, and I'm sure you'll find someone, somewhere, who has a nice tree they don't wire.

I'm not arguing. I'm simply stating best practice. Do whatever you want - they're your trees. But if someone comes to this site looking for a recommendation for what kind of soil they should use for a bonsai in a pot, I'm going to lead with the rule... and not the 1000 exceptions.

The majority of times a beginner comes to this site it is because they are having trouble with their first tree. And the majority of trouble is due to bad soil or bad watering practice. How do we know it is bad soil if anyone can use anything they want? Rhetorical question... because it has been answered so many times. In fact, I'll bet if I posed as a beginner right now and asked you what soil I should use with my potted Japanese black pine, you would give me an answer that didn't include potting soil.

Perhaps I need to restate. Everyone will have their own opinion. Each of us has stories of both success and failure. Many of us have strong opinions and the lived experience (and trees) to back up our opinions. (A best practice for me may not be best for you even though it's generally accepted as best practice.) There is everything right and correct for a beginner to learn best practice and this is one of the best places I've found to learn it.
It's arguing about it that's, most often, a waste of time. I choose to be with my trees.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

So I tried to pickup two bags of Oil-Dri at the local Napa. They didn’t have 8822, but this was what they stocked. Almost every piece went through 1/8 screen. Can I assume this would cut down on oxygen, if mixed with 1/4 lava and pumice, in roots with such small particle size?

 

[19Mateo83]

So I tried to pickup two bags of Oil-Dri at the local Napa. They didn’t have 8822, but this was what they stocked. Almost every piece went through 1/8 screen. Can I assume this would cut down on oxygen, if mixed with 1/4 lava and pumice, in roots with such small particle size?

Too small particle size, you should be able to request them order some 8822 for you. If there’s a tractor supply anywhere near you ( there’s 3 in New Jersey) you can also check out their safe t sorb product. It’s about 35-40% 1/8+ to 1/4 size particles.

 

[Eckhoffw]

Do as you do. Seek advice as you may. Learn to listen and explore.
Now grow trees and learn.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

What are some practical uses for 2 bags of unusable product now