Cost efficiencies of mixes

[August44]

I used NapA 8822 this year on about 15 trees. Never used it before..

Junipers, Elm, Hornbeam, P. mume, Ezo Spruce..trident maple and J Maple.

I used in place of Akadama and not on my best 5 trees. I sifted it well and used it 50/50 with sifted and graded pumice on my deciduous. And 35%/65% 8822/pumice for conifers. Both in large grow boxes and bonsai pots. My thoughts are as follows.

Overall I really like it. More importantly my trees grew gangbusters this year. I fertilized organic pellet with bi weekly drench of Fish emulsion/ and liquid kelp for humate's and micro's. This combination was great for plant health as far as I can tell. Got great shoot extension and wonderful healthy green leaf color thru-out the season.

Would I take it over Akadama ..? No, not for finished trees.. they will get Akadama/pumice mix when I can source it.
The pumice/DE mix is really light and has not settled into a firm soil on some trees . I like when a soil firms up a bit. It helps with watering so things don't wash away easily. For the record this is only the case in some pots others seemed to stiffen up a it more nicely. additionally the color of Akadama is also more helpful with knowing when to water. the DE does change color but its more subtle and takes more time to figure out what the water needs are.
This is only one year in.. I don't know what's happening inside the pots. We will see if the soil at the bottom is staying too wet or perhaps deteriorating in any way this year when I repot some of the trees that got 8822 mix 12 months ago . The beauty of Akadama is it has proven itself on some of the most beautiful, old and amazing Japanese and International trees on the planet. We know its fantastic properties.

But If I could not get Akadama I would imagine it will come down to 8822/DE and/or pine bark to substitute for Akadama.

I would Never use 100% DE. Not based on how it performed this year. Seems like it would be way too wet. I would only use it max 50% with either lava or preferably pumice. But I don't think I''d ever use 100% Akadama either not while I could cut it with pumice or lava..


Hope that helps..

In regards to Napa 8822, what does "I sifted it well" mean? What size screen etc. Thanks!

 

[mwbonsai]

Getting pumice and lava in WA is not very difficult - because they mine it there

Getting either product east of the Mississippi is more difficult Best option I can come up with is shipping full cubic yard totes from Colorado. 1000 lbs of pumice costs about $250... and the shipping is another $250

Where in Colorado are you ordering the lava and/or pumice from? If lava, is it black? Thanks!

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

I'm curious. What exactly is it about Turface that is so bad. It's a high fired calcined clay product that doesn't break down I've read. Does it contain harmful materials, too high or low of a pH, too small of particle size.......what?? I've never used it so I'm kind of in the dark.

From what I have read it is the shape and it repels water when it gets too dry that creates dead spots of roots. Also, deciduous respond more favorably to it than conifers. I’m a newb so anyone is free to correct me without hurting my feelings

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I'm curious. What exactly is it about Turface that is so bad. It's a high fired calcined clay product that doesn't break down I've read. Does it contain harmful materials, too high or low of a pH, too small of particle size.......what?? I've never used it so I'm kind of in the dark.

Piece size is very small. Smaller than anything I would use short of shohin or mame.

The piece shape is flatish - more like a tiny discus or a flake of shale than a round piece of pumice or akadama. The soil is has little void space for oxygen exchange. I guess no surprise, since the product is designed for ball fields and you wouldn't want a round slippery product.

It is hydrophobic when dry. Because it is a compact product with little void space, the surface of the soil dries while the soil at the bottom remains wet... if not saturated. The tendency is to water more - since the surface of the soil keeps drying out. I would lift out trees in Turface and the bottom of the soil was swamp-like.

Here's a good comparison:


Compare Turface (in the rear) with the properly sized pumice and pine bark in the foreground. Note also all the fines in the product. In this image the Turface has not been screened. When I screened Turface using my smallest/finest bonsai soil screen, I lost about 50% of the product as dust and fines.

I know I will hear a lot of comments from people saying "it works for me". The truth is the only reason people use it is that it is cheap. Not that it is best. Not that it is even good. It is cheap in bulk. Perhaps if someone could get Turface pieces in 4x the diameter it might be worth a second look.

There's not some grand conspiracy of bonsai soil users out there trying to force people to use expensive soil blends. Commercial bonsai nurseries don't use the blends they use because they want to spend more money than needed. They use what works best - because a single failure might kill a tree worth $$$. Akadama is not expensive. SHIPPING Akadama is expensive. Same can be said for both pumice and lava. If you live where they mine it, it is literally "dirt cheap". Bagging it and shipping it somewhere is what costs 50% or more of the final retail price. On Amazon right now there are a large number of horticultural pumice products... some of which range as high as $7 a pound. Screened pumice out of the ground is about $.10 a pound. The rest is packaging, shipping... and profit margin.

I can go to Aliexpress and buy a bag of red line Akadama for $5.26. Shipping to the US is another matter - and is more than 3x the cost of the product Order by the pallet, or better yet, order 20 pallets so you can fill a 40' shipping container, and your shipping costs per bag drop substantially.

 

[Joe Dupre']

Bnut, that makes more sense. The 8822 I use is rather small, but it doesn't seem to do any harm. It boils down to knowing how much water your trees need.

 

[Malix]

In regards to Napa 8822, what does "I sifted it well" mean? What size screen etc. Thanks!

I have a three size screen set. 90% of it was small sized 1/8”+. That is another problem I forgot to note. Limited size options and it’s on the small side. But in my mixes it drains winderfully. I doubt there is too much water anywhere in my pots. but like I said we’ll see when I repot a few trees this year. If I could find a medium sized DE..That would be great.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I lose about a third or less when I sift 8822 through the smallest screen in my 3 screen set. I never have any big particles to sift out. Sure, I would like the particle size to be a bit bigger, but I've never found a tree that wouldn't grow well in 50/50 8822 and sifted pine bark.

 

[Malix]

Repost…with edits more notes.

have a three size screen set. 90% of it was small sized 1/8”+. That is another problem I forgot to note. Limited size options and it’s on the small side. But in my mixes it drains winderfully. I doubt there is too much water anywhere in my pots. but like I said we’ll see when I repot a few trees this year. If I could find a medium sized DE..That would be great.

all in all I think this works for me so far because pumice is such a good soil particle. The DE seems to hold more moisture and may have equivalent or better CEC than pumice ( I don’t quite remember). I think it compliments the pumice. But without the pumice it would be much harder to get these results I think.

FTR. I would never try turface. Not if I could get volcanic soil particles. Seen too many folks have less than perfect results compared with mostly volcanic soil particles. Akadama/pumice/ lava.. I’m in Cali and we have easy access to pumice and lava. Less so with Akadama. These soils have made for much better plant health than Turface from what I’ve seen..Akadama and pumice being my absolute favorite.

 

[MSU JBoots]

I just buy Bonsai Jack soil by clicking a mouse button.

It's way worth it when you factor in the costs of hauling, sifting, and mixing components from three different places.

I bought a few gallons of that earlier this year since I read on this forum it was good for the price. Curious what blend you buy from them? I bought the universal organic soil.

 

[Joe Dupre']

After sifting various products over the last 6 years, I can see why the bonsai soil dealers charge what they do. Fairly low yields and the time spent sifting and mixing is what you pay for.

 

[777thSunRay]

Cost effectiveness implies a choice that works and is within a budget. Both aspects being subjective. My mix of inorganic works out to a cost of .85 cents per lb. CAD. ( assuming 1:1:1:1 ) for the four components. This includes bulk bag purchases of Akadama, Black Lava, Horticultural pumice and granite grit. ( above cost includes tax, shipping or delivery ) This is important to me as I live out of town away from major centres. ( I do not include ferry costs as I normally combine errands with personal trips to the mainland)
I consider that very cost effective given the performance of these components and the variations that can be created with particle size and percentage changes within the combinations. With a bit of extra work ( resifting and cleaning ) often re-useable with very little breakdown over time. The bagged product has minimal dust/fines and there is almost no waste after sifting for size. Note: much lower labour cost than the time spent sifting bulk product from the landscape nursery with the high level of waste.
Attention to particle size allows one to manage desired type of root formation during the various developmental stages for bonsai.
I often wonder if those considering cost effectiveness take into account the real cost of the amount of useable material they actually end up with when purchasing bulk landscape material.
This translates lower when converted to USD, on average a reduction of 25% to 30% when the exchange rate is considered. Unless we go back to a few months in 2009 when we were on par for a bit.
So say .65 cents per lb. USD

Very enlightening, thank you... so when you talk about landscape nurseries, is that a term for a general nursery, or hardware store nursery section? What is the better alternative? Is it as opposed to a Bonsai nursery? Should I check local ones for bulk Akadama? If it's not too much trouble, maybe off the top of your head what's a good deal on the 4 elements of the mix you mention? Once again, many thanks!

Oh, @Bonsai Nut would you kindly recommend places to go if I should 'splurge' (lol) and get Akadama?

 

[River's Edge]

Very enlightening, thank you... so when you talk about landscape nurseries, is that a term for a general nursery, or hardware store nursery section? What is the better alternative? Is it as opposed to a Bonsai nursery? Should I check local ones for bulk Akadama? If it's not too much trouble, maybe off the top of your head what's a good deal on the 4 elements of the mix you mention? Once again, many thanks!

Oh, @Bonsai Nut would you kindly recommend places to go if I should 'splurge' (lol) and get Akadama?

I use the term landscape nursery to denote those that stock and sell shrubs and trees for landscape purposes. As opposed to a nursery that specializes in shrubs and trees specifically propagated and developed for Bonsai. To my knowledge Akadama is sold as a bagged product in 13 Litre bags or smaller. Bulk purchase would involve larger quantity of the bags as in a pallet of 50 bags for example.

 

[Coppersdad]

Bonsai Soil Disagreement
now at a club near you...

 

[River's Edge]

Bonsai Soil Disagreement
now at a club near you...

View attachment 416793

I get the coffee and bourbon, never understood the cigars! Suppose, that may be perceived as poking the bear.
In this case it is meant to be perceived as a blessing. Like in the blessing for the Tzar " Please God, bless and keep them far, far, away from us"
Keep on trucking!

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Bonsai Soil Disagreement

LOL I don't think there is a disagreement. Ryan, Boon, Bjorn... they all agree. I think there is a huge difference between ignorance and disagreement. I don't see Bill Valavanis using Oil Dry, Turface or cat litter If akadama cost the same as Oil Dry, which would people use?

In every soil war thread I read, it is always about people trying to save money... and arguing that their alternative is "as good as" accepted best practice. So consider the source. If their trees are as good or better than Ryan Neil's, and soil results better than Boon's, I would listen to what they had to say. Otherwise, I think it is wise to be skeptical

Remember my thread about trying to learn what the pros do - and follow it exactly? Only when you master what they do and can get similar results should you start to experiment. Don't start your bonsai journey by trying to relearn what other people already know.

 

[Sean Walker]

Up here in the PNW we can “just” call up any gravel, sand, soil, or bark supplier and easily order delivery of pumice or red lava by the cubic yard. Try that? Sometimes the search criteria is “landscaping supply” or similar business categories.

Maybe 1/2 of the businesses will also do a five-gallon bucket rate, where you pull up, shovel it into your buckets, and then pay by each bucket.

Maybe 1/4 of them will do a “we load you haul” rate where, if you have a truck, they’ll dump a front loader bucket into your bed.

Great recommendation
There are local ones here in W.PA that let you bucket what ya want. That helps with the size you are looking for. The smaller stuff just goes to the edges and is easily scooped!

 

[Joe Dupre']

Striving for the best trees by using the best soil, pots, fertilizer and material is a worthy endeavor, to be sure. But what if "the best" is not what you're after. What if you're looking for B performance and B success? What if that level is perfectly fine for you? What if the B level is plenty enough to make you happy? Horrors!!

I've found that the last 1 or 2% of effort, cost, time, etc. to make somthing "perfect", is almost never worth it for ME. Your opinion and experience may differ, and that is perfectly fine by me. We all have to chose what's best for us. I say, keep at it. I do love to see the results of someone's undying efforts for excellence.

 

[Artsmith]

There are as many opinions about bonsai soil as there are bonsai However, many people have had good results with an inorganic mix made from 1/3 akadama, 1/3 pumice, 1/3 lava rock. Piece size is determined by the size of your bonsai, generally, but 3/16" - 1/4" is a good size for many medium size and larger trees. Smaller trees in smaller pots you will want to go smaller - like 1/8". I sift my soil components and have a couple of Home Depot buckets on the side where I keep smaller piece sizes (though not dust/fines - you never want those regardless of your mix).

Green Thumb I'm talking about the local nursery chain like the one in Lake Forest. They have their soil components displayed as bags hanging on their wall. Just ask them about their smallest pine bark mix. You are looking for small chunks with a minimum of dust/fines.

View attachment 414719

For development purposes, I was pretty successful with a mix made up of mostly pumice and a little pine bark, but these trees were usually planted in large pond baskets or Anderson flats where drainage was never going to be a problem. For trees in bonsai pots, I would go with the traditional blend with no organic, and I didn't have to worry about the soil clogging until the tree's rootball had grown and taken up all the void space in the soil.

You never want "dirt" in any bonsai mix. That includes potting soil, sand, dust, organic fines, anything that turns into mud in water. Even if used in small amounts, that muck will simply fill in the void space in your soil mix and create pockets of anaerobic activity. Roots need oxygen to live, and if you choke them off they will die and rot... exacerbating poor soil conditions. This includes clay products that might start as pieces, but break down quickly when wet (think cat litter). There are a million clay products out there that may look like great soil components (as a replacement for akadama), but be very careful if you use them without experience. Even branded products can differ in their make-up from region to region. What works in one place may not work in another - because the product is different.

Very informative. Learned a lot I didn’t know that I needed to know.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Striving for the best trees by using the best soil, pots, fertilizer and material is a worthy endeavor, to be sure. But what if "the best" is not what you're after. What if you're looking for B performance and B success? What if that level is perfectly fine for you? What if the B level is plenty enough to make you happy? Horrors!!

I've found that the last 1 or 2% of effort, cost, time, etc. to make somthing "perfect", is almost never worth it for ME. Your opinion and experience may differ, and that is perfectly fine by me. We all have to chose what's best for us. I say, keep at it. I do love to see the results of someone's undying efforts for excellence.

I don't believe in the concept of perfection. Nothing is perfect. Rather I live by the credo "anything worth doing is worth doing well". And while no tree is perfect, the least perfect tree is a dead one

But your response is a classic straw man. Instead of refuting the argument, misstate the other party's position, and proceed to knock it down I don't care what soil you use - or how many trees you kill using it. The strange thing about social media is that people show up, ask for advice, ignore the advice given, and then want confirmation that their alternative is ok. My argument is simply: people are using alternative soil mixes because they hope to save money - NOT because they are better. The pros use the mixes they use not because they want to waste money, but because the money spent yields results. And the scenario that you conveniently ignore in your post above is that it is quite possible someone can spend less time, less money, less effort, and still achieve BETTER results because they learn from other peoples' experiences and carefully step in the trail blazed by others.

Soil is such a funny thing. It is probably the cheapest part of this hobby, and yet the first thing people want to round corners on. I would spend $500 on good soil before I would spend $500 on good pots... but that's just my personal choice. I honestly feel so many of these soil threads sound like "how much money can I save on soil components before I start killing trees?" Not "what is the best soil to use for bonsai"? The answer to the second question is well known. The answer to the first is anyone's guess

 

[leatherback]

people are using alternative soil mixes because they hope to save money - NOT because they are better.

Sorry. Disagree.

I do not use akadama because of horrible tree losses in the japanese dirt AND because I do not believe in shipping dirt halfway across the world if equally suitable materials are available nearby. Money has never been a reason.
Sorry.