Collecting Common Hawthorn Zone 6 - Calling for help

[minkes]

Hey all! I need some advice and help. I am still unsuccessful with collecting Hawthorns. I tried few times. Best one lived for two years but eventually died. Many folks here on the forum wrote that it is really easy for them to collect hawthorns. I am successful with other spiecies but hawthorns are nightmare for me. In my area hawthorns have very big strong roots and usually even bigger tap root with minimal feeder roots close to the trunk. I potted them in mix of zeolite, perlite and black bag them. They sprouted, but every time eventually died.

I think, these points could be my reasons why they did not survived:
- I used too small particle sizes ( 3-6mm) causing too much moisture (and springs here could be really wet)
- I had not kept them long enough in black bag
- some returning freezing temperatures after collecting

What options I think I could improve - here is wellcomed any of your tips and tricks:
- to put collected tree to the garden for year or two instead of potting it (is so, use garden soil, or dig a hole and put tree to the garden with soil mix like for yamadori?)
- if potting I will try bigger particle sizes this time - I bought lava (6-12mm), zeolite (4-8mm), spagnum moss, pine bark (5-12mm)
- black bag tree and put it into my basement for month or so because of early spring freezings. (Temperature in basement is in early spring is around 10 Celcius, but very little light from small window)
- to use rooting stimulator on big wounds of cutted roots?
- try to collect in autumn istead of spring?

What do you think is best to try? Maybe somebody from Central Europe with his exact steps?

Hawthorn here are really like weed, so do not be angry with me that I destroyed few trees till now

 

[minkes]

These trees are near me and there is heavy forrest cutting, so with collecting I could in fact save them. I want to have as much success as possible.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

bigger tap root with minimal feeder roots close to the trunk.

I think that's the problem.
Without feeder roots, they die after a couple years.

They produce roots pretty easily if they have enough energy to do so. Without a bunch of feeders, this energy can't be produced so new feeder roots also can't be produced. The wounds will then start to rot around the summertime and the plant in leaf will wilt and die.

I think the best approach would be to collect them with the tap root intact and then over time reduce that through a couple repotting cycles. Giving it time to make new feeders closer to the trunk.

 

[August44]

I think that's the problem.
Without feeder roots, they die after a couple years.

They produce roots pretty easily if they have enough energy to do so. Without a bunch of feeders, this energy can't be produced so new feeder roots also can't be produced. The wounds will then start to rot around the summertime and the plant in leaf will wilt and die.

I think the best approach would be to collect them with the tap root intact and then over time reduce that through a couple repotting cycles. Giving it time to make new feeders closer to the trunk.

Even if the tap root has no feeders?

 

[minkes]

I tried first time to collect hawthorn in late autumn at first week of this November (2024). On the photos is the collected tree. As you can see as typical with hawthorns here - only strong roots with very few feeder roots. I put it to the unheated cellar, where is about 3 to 6 Celcius. Lot of moss on top of substrate and covered with black bag. Will see if it works, but few visible roots are sprouting from the trunk giving me some hope. I will update you later. Now I am waiting till early spring, when I want to collect another one.






This is, what I always get here - strong roots with very few feeder roots.


Substrate covered with moss.


Tree inside black bag for moisture retention and creating humid enviroment.


Two roots sprouting directly from trunk - sing of hope for me.


And two roots sprouting under moss about soil level. I am not disturbing tree, just uncovered little bit of moss to see, if there are any signs of something.


Substrate I used: zeolite, lava rock, pine bark and little bit of spagnum moss.

 

[ponderingsage]

Looks like you are on the right path. Have you looked at bonsai4me harry Harrington work and tony tickles work?
I’ve had similar challenges with our native Hawthornes and I think it’s about just collecting a few extra and committing to taking off that tap root, because if you don’t know, I’ll never sit right in a container

 

[minkes]

Looks like you are on the right path. Have you looked at bonsai4me harry Harrington work and tony tickles work?
I’ve had similar challenges with our native Hawthornes and I think it’s about just collecting a few extra and committing to taking off that tap root, because if you don’t know, I’ll never sit right in a container

I learned about this blag bag technique from them and Mauro Stemberger. Bonsai4me was one of the best sources that improved my skills years ago. Now I just need to try it on few more trees and also compare autumn vs spring collecting. I will be updating here my success / failure with hawthorns for upcoming months.

 

[MrBonsai19]

Im not experienced with this topic, but I have seen suggestions that you can leave the tree in the ground, dig to and cut the main tap root and reduce the long structural roots by cutting them back, then come back next year to collect it. This gives the tree an opportunity to recover from the structural root pruning and develop feeder root without compounding the stress by relocating and completely uprooting it. You can also back fill the root ball with more friendly soil/aggregate mix to try and encourage fine roots to develop. Maybe even add some high P fertilizer (this might be unnecessary though). It will set up the tree for better success when ultimately collected in the following growing season.

EDIT - also its not clear from your pictures; are you tying the collected tree down in the pot? This could be very important to ensure stability needed for feeder roots to develop

 

[minkes]

I didn’t tying them before and for sure it could be big part of unsuccessful trials. Now I am tying every tree so one more variable for better success. Very good point for ToDo list

 

[Shibui]

As you can see as typical with hawthorns here - only strong roots with very few feeder roots.

This is not usually a problem when transplanting hawthorn. They are very good at growing new feeder roots from the cut ends of roots. I usually cut thick roots quite short because it needs to fit into a bonsai pot some day. No problem with survival and lots of new roots growing from the ends of cut roots the following year.
Tying in is only necessary where the trunks are likely to move with wind or people/animals pushing past. Usually not required where the trunks have been chopped. I only tie unstable trees into pots after transplant.
The hawthorn we have here - Craetagus monogyna - is a vigorous environmental weed species in my area. They transplant very easily. I get around 95% survival rates with no special treatment.
The new roots you have growing is a very good sign so I suspect your trees will grow well in spring.

 

[minkes]

Maybe everything I did was OK but harsh summer sun is the problem. I have no bigger trees on my garden to provide some shade / partial shade for summer. This season I will try to provide some sort of shelter for collected trees to protect them from summer sun. Every tree I lost sprouted but then eventually died in the summer, so maybe the problem lies in that.