Coast Live Oaks

[Wulfskaar]

Hi everyone! I have several Coast Live Oak saplings growing in my yard that can’t stay forever, so I am planning to collect between 2 and 4 of them. This is my first time doing this, so I wanted to bounce my plan off some people with experience. I have done some research but there are a few unknowns that I would like help with.

These come from several large, full-grown Coast Live Oak trees, but the main one is spectacular. It is huge and beautiful. These pictures don't do it justice. My neighbor’s tree died and was aged at 370 years and it was smaller than mine, so I would estimate mine to be at least that old. These saplings are its babies. My eventual goal in this bonsai experiment is to recreate that tree on a much smaller scale.





Close example of the shape I’m looking to end up with:


I’ve done some research, and this is my plan so far:

COLLECTION

When: Between November and February
How:
• Dig widely around to make sure to get as many lateral roots as possible. Cut taproot but keep lateral roots.
• Wash off ALL “native” soil from roots.
• Wash whole tree, focusing on roots, in solution of 2-3 drops of HB-101 per gallon of water.
• NOTE: They are right in my yard, so they will be going from ground to pot very quickly.

Here are a couple of my target candidates:


POTTING

Soil: I have heard from a Coast Live Oak bonsai expert that he has a specific mix, but he tested 41 different mixes and they mostly performed similarly. So, instead of buying several different things and mixing my own, I am thinking of just using a standard bonsai mix.
Pot: Here is where I have gotten a lot of differing information. Do I pot in a 1-gallon pot, a larger than 1-gallon pot, or straight to a bonsai pot? I have something special cooked up for the bonsai pot!


AFTER POTTING

• Water with solution of water and HB-101 at least once per week (depending on heat) and let it sit until spring.
• Fertilize with Bayer Tree and Shrub pellets (not liquid).
• Defoliate completely twice per year, April through September.

NEXT YEAR

Spring: Defoliate and begin trimming to thicken trunk.
Late Summer: Defoliate (and trim???).

QUESTIONS

• When I dig it up and pot it…
  • Do I put right into bonsai pot or big pot for allowing larger growth?
  • Do I trim the roots heavily like I’ve seen on many videos?
  • Should I use regular bonsai mix or try to order a special mix? Are there any pre-made soils that are appropriate for this?

Thanks for any help you can give me! I really appreciate it!

 

[rollwithak]

Not sure how quickly you have to remove them, but they’re in a good place to grow right now, in the ground. If you’re wanting to thicken the trunk, which if you’re trying to emulate THAT tree, you are, you’re gonna want to NOT put that in a bonsai pot yet. I would start grooming it in its current location if possible.

Best of luck, I love oaks and am looking forward to hearing about your progress!

Cheers

 

[Bonsai Nut]

If I look at your final vision, and then look at your source trees, you have a ton of growing yet to do. I would definitely skip a bonsai pot, and would place it in an Anderson flat at the minimum, possibly even setting the flat on the ground and letting roots run out the bottom (pruning the roots back every couple of years).

My live oaks don't require any special bonsai mix. I currently have them in 90% pumice, 10% pine bark nuggets.

When collecting, I would not trim any more roots than absolutely necessary until the tree is well established in bonsai soil. Also if you want to thicken your trunk the fastest, you let the tree run without pruning. Trunk thickness is a direct function of foliage mass and vascular demand - if you keep trimming and pruning, your trunk will not thicken much, if at all.

Also don't forget Coast Live Oaks should be handled like Mediterranean species - they are going to have two flushes of growth each year (spring and fall) and will be dormant in the summer and winter.

 

[papkey5]

Do not wash the native soil from the roots!! Your trees will need that for survival. I would skip the washing completely. It isn’t necessary with yamadori (Japanese for collecting from the wild) Use that soil with your new pots. Get as much of the taproot as you can. I had cut the taproot from some oak seedlings and they died. I would plan to put them in three gallon pots. Do not put them into bonsai pots if you want to develop a thick trunk. You will need to do successive trunk chops. I would only use water until the next spring after the tree has shown strong growth. I would also not do any trimming. I believe you will need a soil that drains well so make sure it has larger particles


what is your climate? Does it freeze Why would you defoliate 2 times a year?

 

[BrianBay9]

Clearly you're in a climate optimal for coast live oak. I live next to a coast live oak forest at the old Ft Ord, so they got my attention as soon as I moved here. I collected 8 last year, and all 8 survived, and I've gotten advice from several oak experts here. I can tell you what I did.

1. Timing - I collected some in December and some in January. All survived
2. Roots - granted, mine were bigger than yours, but I dug down to the first set of lateral roots, and cut the tap root flat just below those laterals. I tried a couple cut flat, without lateral roots and they lived as well. Wouldn't be my first choice, but that's what happened.
3. Keeping native soil - this is a very sandy area and the ones I collected lost all their native soil without me trying to remove it. All lived.
4. After care - I was advised to completely defoliate the trees, so I did. I'm not sure that's a great idea for trees as small as yours since you won't have much reserve energy stored in the trunk. All mine budded out strongly in February. I potted mine up in 100% pumice. No fertilizer until the new buds extended and hardened.

Your results may vary, depending on your microclimate. I'm in coast live oak heaven, so I'm sure that helps.

I had the luxury of choosing trees to collect that already had the trunk size I wanted. For yours I'd follow Bnut's advice and grow them out a while before going to a bonsai pot.

As I said, I'm 8 for 8 so far and I have another six or seven identified for collecting this winter.

 

[Wulfskaar]

Do not wash the native soil from the roots!! Your trees will need that for survival. I would skip the washing completely. It isn’t necessary with yamadori (Japanese for collecting from the wild) Use that soil with your new pots. Get as much of the taproot as you can. I had cut the taproot from some oak seedlings and they died. I would plan to put them in three gallon pots. Do not put them into bonsai pots if you want to develop a thick trunk. You will need to do successive trunk chops. I would only use water until the next spring after the tree has shown strong growth. I would also not do any trimming. I believe you will need a soil that drains well so make sure it has larger particles


what is your climate? Does it freeze Why would you defoliate 2 times a year?

I got a lot of my info from this guy (

) who says to wash the roots completely, so I'll have to do more research on that. It's a long video but has some good info.

I'm in no particular hurry, but these saplings are all growing in random places in my landscaping, so they can't stay there. In the coming years, we will likely have bulldozers in the back yard for a complete redo of the entire yard, maybe even adding a pool. They will either get repotted or die .

I'm in Southern CA, right in the natural zone for these trees; in fact, they are all natural. The big ones possibly outdate the arrival of the Spanish here, so it's quite possible that the Chumash Indians collected their acorns! I don't think it has reached a freezing temp here in many years.

Since I have several, I'm thinking of trying several things you guys are suggesting. I should probably pot the biggest one in a big pot to just let it grow and I'll try other things with the other ones. I have a billion acorns too and have planted a few just for shits and giggles.

I'm VERY OPEN to all suggestions! Thank you to whoever makes them!!! I will take them all seriously.

 

[Wulfskaar]

If I look at your final vision, and then look at your source trees, you have a ton of growing yet to do. I would definitely skip a bonsai pot, and would place it in an Anderson flat at the minimum, possibly even setting the flat on the ground and letting roots run out the bottom (pruning the roots back every couple of years).

My live oaks don't require any special bonsai mix. I currently have them in 90% pumice, 10% pine bark nuggets.

When collecting, I would not trim any more roots than absolutely necessary until the tree is well established in bonsai soil. Also if you want to thicken your trunk the fastest, you let the tree run without pruning. Trunk thickness is a direct function of foliage mass and vascular demand - if you keep trimming and pruning, your trunk will not thicken much, if at all.

Also don't forget Coast Live Oaks should be handled like Mediterranean species - they are going to have two flushes of growth each year (spring and fall) and will be dormant in the summer and winter.

Great info! Thanks!

 

[Wulfskaar]

Clearly you're in a climate optimal for coast live oak. I live next to a coast live oak forest at the old Ft Ord, so they got my attention as soon as I moved here. I collected 8 last year, and all 8 survived, and I've gotten advice from several oak experts here. I can tell you what I did.

1. Timing - I collected some in December and some in January. All survived
2. Roots - granted, mine were bigger than yours, but I dug down to the first set of lateral roots, and cut the tap root flat just below those laterals. I tried a couple cut flat, without lateral roots and they lived as well. Wouldn't be my first choice, but that's what happened.
3. Keeping native soil - this is a very sandy area and the ones I collected lost all their native soil without me trying to remove it. All lived.
4. After care - I was advised to completely defoliate the trees, so I did. I'm not sure that's a great idea for trees as small as yours since you won't have much reserve energy stored in the trunk. All mine budded out strongly in February. I potted mine up in 100% pumice. No fertilizer until the new buds extended and hardened.

Your results may vary, depending on your microclimate. I'm in coast live oak heaven, so I'm sure that helps.

I had the luxury of choosing trees to collect that already had the trunk size I wanted. For yours I'd follow Bnut's advice and grow them out a while before going to a bonsai pot.

As I said, I'm 8 for 8 so far and I have another six or seven identified for collecting this winter.

In the video I posted a minute ago, the guys said that defoliating causes the trunk to thicken up. However, he was talking about collecting larger trees than the ones I have, so waiting until they grow bigger is probably a good idea. Thanks!

 

[LittleDingus]

Do not wash the native soil from the roots!! Your trees will need that for survival.

I second that...but will qualify it. The reason to leave native soil is most oaks depend on mycorrhiza...a fungus in the soil. Here's some interesting reading from a nursery that grows California natives...should be relevant to you

California oak trees and mycorrhiza

Inoculate with mycorrhiza, save your money!

www.laspilitas.com

My live oaks (suber and virginiana) are all from acorn. Even so, I carry a fair amount of old soil with them when I transplant them. If the roots are clinging to it...it stays. I've not had any die on me due to transplant shock...and I even cut the tap root. I do have a crapton of mycorrhiza power so I do mix up a gallon for the first watering after transplant. By "crapton" I mean a small 5oz bottle but at 1 teaspoon per gallon I have essentially a lifetime supply!

I also agree with leaving them in the ground as long as you can to thicken up. One thing you might do is spade around half the tree a few feet out from the trunk every year. The idea is to cut some of the roots to force them to branch further back. This helps keep the feeder roots closer in to the trunk which will make collection easier and safer for the tree. There are lots of threads on this site that detail that process if you search for how to collect from the wild.

I, too, love live oaks. I'm partial to the southern live oaks with the long flowing tillandsia wigs they get in regions like New Orleans

 

[Bonsai Nut]

In the video I posted a minute ago, the guys said that defoliating causes the trunk to thicken up. However, he was talking about collecting larger trees than the ones I have, so waiting until they grow bigger is probably a good idea. Thanks!

Can you tell me where in the video they mention this (how many minutes into the video?) I'm would be surprised if that is what he said, literally. I think he may have meant something else like "defoliating causes backbudding and ramification development which, in turn, leads to a thicker trunk"(?)

 

[BrianBay9]

Can you tell me where in the video they mention this (how many minutes into the video?) I'm would be surprised if that is what he said, literally. I think he may have meant something else like "defoliating causes backbudding and ramification development which, in turn, leads to a thicker trunk"(?)

Yeah, my understanding is that complete defoliation immediately after collecting is simply an aid in water management. Less transpiration until the next set of buds get going.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I second that...but will qualify it. The reason to leave native soil is most oaks depend on mycorrhiza...a fungus in the soil. Here's some interesting reading from a nursery that grows California natives...should be relevant to you

California oak trees and mycorrhiza

Inoculate with mycorrhiza, save your money!

www.laspilitas.com

My live oaks (suber and virginiana) are all from acorn. Even so, I carry a fair amount of old soil with them when I transplant them. If the roots are clinging to it...it stays. I've not had any die on me due to transplant shock...and I even cut the tap root. I do have a crapton of mycorrhiza power so I do mix up a gallon for the first watering after transplant. By "crapton" I mean a small 5oz bottle but at 1 teaspoon per gallon I have essentially a lifetime supply!

I also agree with leaving them in the ground as long as you can to thicken up. One thing you might do is spade around half the tree a few feet out from the trunk every year. The idea is to cut some of the roots to force them to branch further back. This helps keep the feeder roots closer in to the trunk which will make collection easier and safer for the tree. There are lots of threads on this site that detail that process if you search for how to collect from the wild.

I, too, love live oaks. I'm partial to the southern live oaks with the long flowing tillandsia wigs they get in regions like New Orleans

Regarding the soil, they are not necessarily growing in native CA soil. They are growing in 40 year old landscaping dirt, for lack of a better term, although the soil under the parent tree undoubtedly has many years of decayed oak leaves in it.

If I were to repot into a 3-gallon pot, would I want to use a bonsai type of soil mix (pumice, etc), or the soil it grew in, or a mix of the two?

 

[BrianBay9]

You can grow these in anything from your garden soil to marbles, as long as your care matches you choice of substrate. In my case, I know that pumice will drain well, and dry out more quickly than soils with organics in them. Pumice also doesn't hold on to fertilizer very well. So I know I'll be watering every day (maybe twice sometimes) and fertilizing every week. If you mix in some of your garden soil it will dry out less quickly, and retain ferts better. But I never have to worry about enough oxygen to the roots.

You don't want to retain water in the root zone that is not regularly exchanged. Roots need oxygen, and they get it by using a well draining pot, and regularly exchanging de-oxygenated water with fresh, oxygenated water.

 

[LittleDingus]

Regarding the soil, they are not necessarily growing in native CA soil. They are growing in 40 year old landscaping dirt, for lack of a better term, although the soil under the parent tree undoubtedly has many years of decayed oak leaves in it.

If I were to repot into a 3-gallon pot, would I want to use a bonsai type of soil mix (pumice, etc), or the soil it grew in, or a mix of the two?

Mycorrhiza grow in all soil. It's probably more important to conifers than most deciduous trees. Oak, however, seems to need it. The soil doesn't need to need to be "native" soil. If you've ever seen a mushroom...even if you haven't, there's likely mycorrhiza in your soil.

The important bit is that some species form symbiotic relationships with the fungus. It grows into their roots and helps them take in nutrients and water. If you wash it all off, the tree could have a hard time while the mycorrhiza re-establishes itself.

Oaks are the only deciduous tree I worry about this relationship with. They are the only deciduous tree I try never to fully bare root. I worry less about the time of year I move oak than I do about carrying plenty of old soil into new.

As always, your mileage may vary...

 

[Wulfskaar]

Can you tell me where in the video they mention this (how many minutes into the video?) I'm would be surprised if that is what he said, literally. I think he may have meant something else like "defoliating causes backbudding and ramification development which, in turn, leads to a thicker trunk"(?)

Well, I tried to find that but could not. He actually gave other reasons for defoliation (at 57 minutes) that did not have to do with the trunk thickening. Not sure why I wrote that down in my notes.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Yeah, my understanding is that complete defoliation immediately after collecting is simply an aid in water management. Less transpiration until the next set of buds get going.

Yes... not completely related to this thread, but a couple of months ago I purchased three female princess persimmons from Ed Clark in the central valley. He was concerned about heat during shipping, so he defoliated all three trees before he shipped. They arrived with bare branches, and after I potted them up, they were pushing buds within a week.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

I would do the following:

1. Dig them up as they are coming out of dormancy. (Leaving them in ground will get them to grow thicker, faster... you can hedge them while in ground to get some branching going)

2. I wouldnt rinse all the soil off immediately, but I would try to remove a majority of excess soil.

3. I would build a grow box or use anderson flats as a grow-out container. Wire the tree into the container to keep it steady as it grows new roots.

4. As soil, I would use something like equal parts pumice, bark, perlite or perlite and DE (Napa 8822). All parts get sifted to remove fines.

5. Leave it for a year or two in this before doing much else.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I'm a sponge!

Thanks everyone for all the info. I see that my plan will need to change drastically, although since I have several, I may do a couple different things so that I have stuff to play with while the biggest one grows and grows.

 

[BrianBay9]

I'm a sponge!

Thanks everyone for all the info. I see that my plan will need to change drastically, although since I have several, I may do a couple different things so that I have stuff to play with while the biggest one grows and grows.

It's great to have the resources to experiment!

 

[CapeFear盆景]

I’ve been growing these two southern live oak (Quercus virginiana) in the ground for about 5 years. I chopped the trunks earlier this year (August) and defoliated the trees at the same time. I plan on digging them up this winter. I will post updates on how it goes.