Cedrus Libani - newbie needs advise

[nabil]

Your problem is in thinking that your primary job at this time is to get this tree into a bonsai pot. That's where you are having a problem. Your job is to replace all of the original soil these trees were grown in with a good quality bonsai soil that will help produce a fine root systerm that can be reduced down to fit in a bonsai pot. You cannot remove all of the old soil at one time. You remove 1/3 to 1/2 the first time then you remove the other 1/3to 1/2 the next repot. In a few years you should have a tree capable of being reduced down enough to go into a bonsai pot. As to the soil issue you have to try to understand how bonsai growers in your area view a good bonsai soil. Look it up on this site, bonsai soil is a discussion that has taken place here many times with a host of different opinions and formulas.

If you find yourself in the position of needing to work on something, go to a nursery and pick up a Juniper to work on. Once you disturb the soil on the Cedars you should not be fooling around with the rest of the tree for a few months. Junipers, on the other hand, can tolerate an abundance of abuse.

It would also help if you could finish your personal profile at least to the point of including your location, we don't want your address but your growing areas----What Country?

I will correct my profile. I live in Lebanon

My question was how to replace 1/3 to 1/2 of old soil in the next repotting.
What I can imagine that in first repor I will work on the bottom half of the soil and prune bellow roots and refill insame container bonsai soil. But in the next spring. I will end up with the same bottom one I worked on the previous time.
How can I progress on the upper part of old soil?

Or I can imagine (correct me) that I should remove the 1/3 ,1/2 from every where. And in next repot I will try to go deeper bellow the trunk.
How did this guy managed with annual repotting?
http://www.why-bonsai.com/bonsai_history_cedar2.html

Plz explain to me more

 

[Vance Wood]

I will correct my profile. I live in Lebanon

My question was how to replace 1/3 to 1/2 of old soil in the next repotting.
What I can imagine that in first repor I will work on the bottom half of the soil and prune bellow roots and refill insame container bonsai soil. But in the next spring. I will end up with the same bottom one I worked on the previous time.
How can I progress on the upper part of old soil?

Or I can imagine (correct me) that I should remove the 1/3 ,1/2 from every where. And in next repot I will try to go deeper bellow the trunk.

http://www.why-bonsai.com/bonsai_history_cedar2.html

Plz explain to me more

You should remove next time what you did not remove this time. Exercise some common sense.

How did this guy managed with annual repotting? First of all you do not repot annually with conifers. Once every three years at the most. Secondly you don't know whether "This guy" repoted the tree at all.

From this point on I think it is important that you get your hands on some bonsai books or attempt to find a club and talk with people who are growing bonsai where you live.

 

[nabil]

You should remove next time what you did not remove this time. Exercise some common sense.

How did this guy managed with annual repotting? First of all you do not repot annually with conifers. Once every three years at the most. Secondly you don't know whether "This guy" repoted the tree at all.

From this point on I think it is important that you get your hands on some bonsai books or attempt to find a club and talk with people who are growing bonsai where you live.

First I would like to thank you for your patience and forgive my inexperience

Here no clubs, and no one grow bonsai. Unfortunately.

Following the common sense you advised, still not able to figure it out. As root ball shaped as big ball accessing to outer part of it per your suggestion for the first time is easy.
But next repot I will face the same outer part which will keep the inner old soil inaccessible. This ofcourse if i pruned some of the roots.That's why I am asking myself how it will be done.
Please be patient with me. Thanking you in advance

P.s this means I need 9 years to pot them in bonsai pot.. what a long time indeed

 

[iant]

Not to disagree with anyone here as recommending bare rooting is not a very good idea with conifers but I've done it with Cedrus Libani. It's been late winter and they did fine. Mine are small and younger, however. I almost killed a couple 3 yrs ago in soil that had too much turface and wasn't well sifted. They really like well draining soil. Mine can take full sun and pretty good heat (up to 90ish.) I almost lost one this year until I realized that the reason it was dying was spider mites. I had seen just a little webbing but hadn't realized how much damage they were doing. If you're in a hot dry area you should check for that. If you see tiny webbing esp toward top of tree you should treat it.
Ian

 

[nabil]

By the way. Each c libani cost me $6.
So cheap to mess around

 

[Desire]

Nabil,

1. "remove 50% of soil" means REPLACE soil in the, say, right half of the root ball. Carefully remove old soil and add proper bonsai soil in this area only. It doesn't mean that you actually cut off half of the roots. It also doesn't mean that you remove bottom half of the root ball.

2. At next repotting you replace soil in the other (left) half of all root ball. As a result of two repotting all your root ball is now in the good bonsai soil. Note: no roots were removed just yet.

3. When roots are in a good bonsai soil, they will start growing differently. Instead of a few thick roots over couple of years the plant will develop a very different root system - with thousands of very fine roots. (See on youtube how professional japanese bonsai growers repot their bonsai - you will see what I mean).

4. Only AFTER you've got this new root system, you will be able to start reducing the rootball. Again, gradually, over a course of few years. And only THEN you will be able to put your plants into a bonsai pot. Yes, it is very long process. Actually, putting your tree in a bonsai pot is the last stage of its development, you DON'T start with this. That's why you need LOTS of patience to do and enjoy bonsai.

5. Please read around before you do anything with your trees. Google, youtube - there is so much information around. It would be really stupid to make simple mistakes and kill nice trees (even if they are cheap), just google a bit first. Hop, my explanation helps, good luck!

 

[Vance Wood]

Not to disagree with anyone here as recommending bare rooting is not a very good idea with conifers but I've done it with Cedrus Libani. It's been late winter and they did fine. Mine are small and younger, however. I almost killed a couple 3 yrs ago in soil that had too much turface and wasn't well sifted. They really like well draining soil. Mine can take full sun and pretty good heat (up to 90ish.) I almost lost one this year until I realized that the reason it was dying was spider mites. I had seen just a little webbing but hadn't realized how much damage they were doing. If you're in a hot dry area you should check for that. If you see tiny webbing esp toward top of tree you should treat it.
Ian

Your pictures show some pretty young and small trees and you live in California and do not have to concern yourself with sub-zero weather in the winter. I agree in general with most of your points.

 

[Desire]

Vance,
could you please specify what exactly is wrong with what I've said? I've simply explained to the poor guy the stuff which you had said before but not explained to him properly.

 

[Vance Wood]

Vance,
could you please specify what exactly is wrong with what I've said? I've simply explained to the poor guy the stuff which you had said before but not explained to him properly.

Almost everything you have thought I said about this is misunderstood. You cannot remove one half from one side without creating a condition with uneven drainage that could kill the tree. If you remove 50% of the soil it can to be off the bottom or figured from the entire perimeter of the soil mass. Try removing this amount of soil and not remove roots as the same time? That's not going to happen. You are trying to make soil replacement independent of root pruning.

 

[Desire]

"You cannot remove one half from one side without creating a condition with uneven drainage that could kill the tree. If you remove 50% of the soil it can to be off the bottom or figured from the entire perimeter of the soil mass."

If you remove 50% off the bottom (i.e. cut off the bottom part of the roots), how do you remove the remaining 50% off the top? You can't.

If you remove 50% off the entire perimeter, how do you remove the inside part? You CAN'T.

If you need to replace the wrong soil, the only way to do it is to change it right-left, not bottom-top. If the tree is very fragile, you can split the process into 3 or more repottings, but again, by dealing with segments (like pieces of cake), not some bottom-top parts as you suggested.

 

[Vance Wood]

"You cannot remove one half from one side without creating a condition with uneven drainage that could kill the tree. If you remove 50% of the soil it can to be off the bottom or figured from the entire perimeter of the soil mass."

If you remove 50% off the bottom (i.e. cut off the bottom part of the roots), how do you remove the remaining 50% off the top? You can't.

If you remove 50% off the entire perimeter, how do you remove the inside part? You CAN'T.

If you need to replace the wrong soil, the only way to do it is to change it right-left, not bottom-top. If the tree is very fragile, you can split the process into 3 or more repottings, but again, by dealing with segments (like pieces of cake), not some bottom-top parts as you suggested.

I don't understand you. First you quote me as if they are your words then you argue with me.

You start cuitting off the bottom then you cut one third of what remains out of the remaining soil mass like slices of a pie or cake. Two or three repottings you will have exchanged the entire soil mass.

 

[RKatzin]

Oh shit! He's got the red ink out! Time to go pet a tree and relax with a good infusion of barley and hops!

 

[Vance Wood]

Oh shit! He's got the red ink out! Time to go pet a tree and relax with a good infusion of barley and hops!

Send one my way. I am beginning to feel like I am being trolled.

 

[RKatzin]

Been reading with great interest as I also have a Blue Atlas and a Lebanii both appearantly going belly up. Playing the waiting game now. Rick