Can I create a Bonsai from an Elm tree sucker?

[oranjeaap]

I'm getting some mixed information from the internet. Some sources say it's a bad idea because suckers have different, usually unsuitable, growth habbits compared to the parent tree. Others say it's easier and faster to get nice trunk development from a sucker.

Well, lets find out!

Species: Ulmus glabra (click)

This idea started about 2 months ago with a 4,5m / 16ft long sucker. It had a total of 4 small branches, two near the bottom, two near the top. The diameter is 4cm (1.5 inch) all the way to the very top. No branches and no movement over about 95% of it's length... a true broomstick.
It was part of a 4m (13ft) tall hedge containing both Elm and Field Maple trees. Because it didn't really have any branches or leaves except the apex protruding from the hedge, it wasn't really contributing to the actual hedge and it was time to remove it.
I left about 50 cm (1.5 ft) of totally bare trunk, no leaves, no buds.

Two months later, it looks like this:



It's growing near a fence and it's impossible get photos from behind, but photo 1 is the proposed front anyway.

I was thinking twin trunk because I saw some potential with this branch and the taper near the base. But upon looking at this picture I realized it's not really a branch, more like a 2nd sucker fused to the main trunk, and it's ugly.







As you can see there is an explosion of growth below the chop site. If you look closely you can also see atleast a dozen buds forming on the actual chop site.






After (and before) the trunk chop there were no leaves, no buds, no nothing. Just a trunk and two little stumps.
At that time I was praying to get some backbudding and I had this chop in mind. But with this abundance of growth I think there are much better options now.

 

[oranjeaap]

Plan:

1) Decide a style.
2) Decide trunk chop site.
3) Let it grow in the "field" for atleast one more, maybe several more years, depending on outcome of steps 1 and 2.
4) Decide layering site.

Opinions on steps 1) and 2) are most welcome.

Challenges:
Grows near a fence so difficult to access proposed back of the tree.
It's a sucker, so has no roots of it's own, a succesful ground or air layering is required to seperate it from the parent tree.

 

[rockm]

Don’t know why you’re bothering with all this. Next spring Just sever the sucker from its main root (and collected any roots if possible-but not really necessary) put the stump in a pot with bonsai soil and wait four to five weeks for the new buds. Do this before bud break next spring. There’s no need to air layer

Elms can take that kind of treatment with little, to no roots/barerooting Done it may time with cedar elm and American elm here.

 

[oranjeaap]

Did some trimming so I could take some clearer pictures:




Not sure how to call the way this branch is protruding from the trunk, but I'm not really like it right now:

 

[oranjeaap]

Don’t know why you’re bothering with all this. Next spring Just sever the sucker from its main root (and collected any roots if possible-but not really necessary) put the stump in a pot with bonsai soil and wait four to five weeks for the new buds. Do this before bud break next spring. There’s no need to air layer

Elms can take that kind of treatment with little, to no roots/barerooting Done it may time with cedar elm and American elm here.

I dont have any experience with Elms so I did not know this. It sounds a bit risky to me. Wouldnt a ground/air layer be a safer method?
I spend about 15 minutes on chopping the trunk, rough trimming and cleaning the mess. And maybe 20 minutes taking photos and writing a forum post. Starting an airlayer takes another 15 minutes. Doesnt sound like too much effort to me.

 

[oranjeaap]

Plan for now:
Blue: Widest part of the trunk so most likely layer site (not really a priority right now).
Orange: Trimmed the clusters down to these four single branches. Left everything at the apex. Also left some branches on the back, near the blue line, you cant see on this picture.
Letting everything grow untill I have decided where to go with this tree.

 

[rockm]

I dont have any experience with Elms so I did not know this. It sounds a bit risky to me. Wouldnt a ground/air layer be a safer method?
I spend about 15 minutes on chopping the trunk, rough trimming and cleaning the mess. And maybe 20 minutes taking photos and writing a forum post. Starting an airlayer takes another 15 minutes. Doesnt sound like too much effort to me.

This cedar elm was Sawed out of the ground with a reciprocating saw before bud break. No feeder roots at all Next photo is Three years later. Elms are easy and tough.

 

[Shibui]

I dont have any experience with Elms so I did not know this. It sounds a bit risky to me. Wouldnt a ground/air layer be a safer method?

I dug elm suckers (English elm) today (mid winter down here). Most have very few roots. I have retained part of the main root on some but chopped though the new trunk on others where there was already a couple of small roots direct from the new trunk.
I can confirm that @rockm advice is good. It is amazing how well elms will transplant with almost no roots.
I know you only have that straight trunk to start with. I do not bother with straight trunks for bonsai. I look for elm suckers that have been grazed and trampled by livestock because that gives me trunks with much better potential.

Some pics of the smaller ones I got. Maybe they will help alleviate some of your fear. I am confident all these will survive the transplant.

I also brought home a couple of root connected potential 'raft' style and one other larger trunk with nice dead wood feature but did not take photos.

I think you're plan is way too tall for the size of the trunk. There's almost no taper in that trunk as shown.
For informal style you could chop the trunk just above the first or second branch then develop the branch as a new section of trunk. That would give you a much needed bend for informal upright AND taper in the trunk.
Broom style is a common style for elms. It's their natural shape. Your sucker has already shown that elms sprout many new shoots from chopped trunks so you can chop straight across the trunk anywhere and end up with lots of new shoots to develop branches for broom style.

 

[leatherback]

When looking at chopping.. Maybe look at this video. I already set the starting point exactly at the example I want to show Looks very similar to yours.
As for layer or just taking it out of the ground.. Depends on how important this is If it is your only elm, why risk it. Just do a layer.

But watch this, section on elm trunk chop starting at aroun 8:15. (you can of course watch the whole thing. It is really really good hahahaha.

 

[BaKiBonsai]

You would be interested in finding out that it is known in the field of propagation that it does matter from what part of the plant you take a cutting. Apical cuttings tend to have a different outcome then side branche cuttings. Cu ttings from some plants will grow orthotropic (upright) from apical cuttings and plagiotripic (laterally) from side branches. See the reference manual for woody plant propagation p34 fig 20.

Cheers,

 

[oranjeaap]

I think you're plan is way too tall for the size of the trunk. There's almost no taper in that trunk as shown.

The plan I drew is not the final design, it's how it currently looks and how I will let it grow for now, untill I decide a style and suitable trunk chop site. It's summer now and I would prefer to do this late winter. Broom is indeed common and I like it for elms so will likely go that route.
But keep in mind this species of Elm grows much coarser than most Elms commonly used for Bonsai. Just looking at the ramifcation of the parent tree, and looking at the diameter of new growth and finally the leaf size (the size of my hand).... this can only ever be a medium to large sized Bonsai.
So ideally I keep as much length as possible. To make that work I need to increase the diameter as much as possible. To do that I want to keep it connected to the parent tree as long as possible.
The reasoning being while it's still connected it has full access to the parent tree root system and that's probably the fastest way to further increase trunk growth. The parent tree is atleast 35 years old, probably more. It must have a mighty root system. After severing it from the parent tree I expect growth to significantly slow for 1-2 years till it has fully established it's own root system.

 

[oranjeaap]

When looking at chopping.. Maybe look at this video. I already set the starting point exactly at the example I want to show Looks very similar to yours.
As for layer or just taking it out of the ground.. Depends on how important this is If it is your only elm, why risk it. Just do a layer.

But watch this, section on elm trunk chop starting at aroun 8:15. (you can of course watch the whole thing. It is really really good hahahaha.

Yes that guy seems to know what he is talking about!
That's basically the reason I left the 4 branches I marked on my picture, so I have 4 possible trunk chop points for next winter/spring. (there is even a 5th lower on the trunk but I dont like the tree from that angle.)

 

[bpancakes]

Is there a difference between a sucker and a (I may be forgetting the term) waterspout. A smokebush I have is putting up a lot from the top and I don't understand why. Looking for light? Definitely not too much water.

Don’t know why you’re bothering with all this. Next spring Just sever the sucker from its main root (and collected any roots if possible-but not really necessary) put the stump in a pot with bonsai soil and wait four to five weeks for the new buds. Do this before bud break next spring. There’s no need to air layer

Elms can take that kind of treatment with little, to no roots/barerooting Done it may time with cedar elm and American elm here.

If the suckers are on the main trunk and you want to leave that, by collect any roots do you mean heel cutting or what am I missing?

 

[rockm]

Is there a difference between a sucker and a (I may be forgetting the term) waterspout. A smokebush I have is putting up a lot from the top and I don't understand why. Looking for light? Definitely not too much water.

If the suckers are on the main trunk and you want to leave that, by collect any roots do you mean heel cutting or what am I missing?

This is a sucker growing from a lateral root not the trunk from what I can see. Collecting it would entail silly sawing the supporting root at both ends to free it up. as for suckers and water sprouts from the trunk you can’t really get those (and why would want to. They’re uninteresting and thin typically)

 

[bpancakes]

This is a sucker growing from a lateral root not the trunk from what I can see. Collecting it would entail silly sawing the supporting root at both ends to free it up. as for suckers and water sprouts from the trunk you can’t really get those (and why would want to. They’re uninteresting and thin typically)

Oh yea I see it now. I didn't necessarily want one, just trying to learn more and figure out what the tree was doing with them as they are always way different than the normal growth habit.

 

[oranjeaap]

This is a sucker growing from a lateral root not the trunk from what I can see.

Yes

Collecting it would entail silly sawing the supporting root at both ends to free it up.

I already tried searching for the root it originates from but it's impossible. It's a big mess of roots from several different trees some of which are older than me. I cant even pinpoint the origin root, let alone free it. A pity because the buried part of the trunk widens nicely and would provide the taper I'm looking for. But the risk of damaging major roots of neighbouring trees is not worth it at this point. It's part of a hedgerow and there are 2 large-ish Field Maples growing less than 2 ft away on either side. It's either layering or, like you proposed earlier, sawing it from the ground without any roots of it's own.

 

[rockm]

Yes



I already tried searching for the root it originates from but it's impossible. It's a big mess of roots from several different trees some of which are older than me. I cant even pinpoint the origin root, let alone free it. A pity because the buried part of the trunk widens nicely and would provide the taper I'm looking for. But the risk of damaging major roots of neighbouring trees is not worth it at this point. It's part of a hedgerow and there are 2 large-ish Field Maples growing less than 2 ft away on either side. It's either layering or, like you proposed earlier, sawing it from the ground without any roots of it's own.

Get a handsaw or a small reciprocating saw clear the top couple of inches he’s of soil off the surface stick the saw into the ground six inches out from the main trunk saw in a circle around the trunk. Push the turn to the side/back to saw underneath. Remove what comes up once the trunk is free plant in plain bonsai soil and wait three to six weeks( all this should be done next spring before leafs buds open. If you do it now you won’t have any success)

The above is exactly how the tree in my pic was collected from the tangle of Texas chaparral. Lots of interlocked roots from neighboring trees etc. such a small operation won’t harm neighboring trees at all. Grubbing around with a shovel and moving a lot of dirt is far more invasive

 

[rockm]

Forgot an important step. Before you plant it bonsai soil wash off ALL the old field soil. You and the tree don’t need muddy non draining field soil in the pot. It will slow or kill the tree. Tree roots need air exchange and drainage to push new roots

 

[Shibui]

So ideally I keep as much length as possible. To make that work I need to increase the diameter as much as possible. To do that I want to keep it connected to the parent tree as long as possible.
The reasoning being while it's still connected it has full access to the parent tree root system and that's probably the fastest way to further increase trunk growth. The parent tree is atleast 35 years old, probably more. It must have a mighty root system. After severing it from the parent tree I expect growth to significantly slow for 1-2 years till it has fully established it's own root system.

Leaving it on the parent root may not actually give you the growth you're expecting. Flow in roots is one way so your sucker does not get anything from the main tree. It only has access to the distal part of the root it is growing from. In addition it must compete with the parent tree, other nearby trees and all that ivy.
You can see root flow demonstrated in some of the pictures I posted.

The thinner root to the left in that photo is coming from the tree. The right side main root is the continuation of that original root. Right side is so much thicker because the sucker is taking water and nutrients and sending food back to the feeder roots. The difference in size indicates how much is flowing through the roots. Typically, the root coming from the parent tree slowly shrinks and eventually dies because it is not conveying water or nutrients to either the parent or the new sucker. Meanwhile the sucker continues to use the remainder of the root it has commandeered and also sends out new roots of it's own from it's trunk, just below soil level. You can also see some of the trunks I collected have started to develop roots of their own.
All that means you may not get the amount of growth you are thinking is possible. It is quite likely you'll get better growth by transplanting the sucker to a large pot or into teh ground somewhere it does not have to compete with the other trees and ivy.
This one I decided to remove the original root because the trunk already has plenty of roots growing from the stem.

I already tried searching for the root it originates from but it's impossible. It's a big mess of roots from several different trees some of which are older than me. I cant even pinpoint the origin root, let alone free it. A pity because the buried part of the trunk widens nicely and would provide the taper I'm looking for. But the risk of damaging major roots of neighbouring trees is not worth it at this point. It's part of a hedgerow and there are 2 large-ish Field Maples growing less than 2 ft away on either side. It's either layering or, like you proposed earlier, sawing it from the ground without any roots of it's own.

Suckers typically emerge from roots only a few inches below soil level. I'd be confident the part of the trunk that widens is where the sucker trunk joins the original root but if you can't get down to it you'll need another option for removal.
One option to remove a sucker is to tie wire tightly around the trunk as far down as you can get. Then pile up enough soil around the trunk to keep that area reasonably damp. As the trunk thickens the tie begins to cut circulation. Response from the tree is to push new roots above the constriction. Provided the soil has moisture you should get lots of radial roots in a year and can cut the trunk just below the wire tie. It's basically layering but takes a little longer.
Layering little higher as indicated in post #6 can be achieved with moss wrapper around the site in plastic or by tying a pot or some other container around the trunk and filling with soil after you girdle the trunk where you want new roots.

Good luck with the project, whatever you decide to do.

 

[leatherback]

I would just groundlayer now to be honest. In late summer it should have plenty of young roots to separate and pot up. And if not, you wait till spring and then separate. Elms grow like weeds. I doubt you will have a worry about slow growth.

as an example.. June first I pulled an elm from the ground, removed most of the roots, planted





and pruned short:






Four weeks later, I was pruning already as the branches were growing too fast to my liking: