bought a chopped BC; plan for future growth?

[bendem]

Hi -

I'm new with bonsai and ordered a bald cypress online a few weeks back. It's in a one gallon container, which has been submerged since I got it, and the company's website describes the tree as: "One gallon trees are straight and pruned down to about 16 inches repeatedly with trunk calipers of about 3/4 inch." Right now the tree is actually about 30" tall with a trunk diameter of around 1".

Typically when I see people ask online about when to trunk chop their BC, I see guidance that they should wait until the trunk is at or near their intended maximum thickness.

But given that my tree has presumably been chopped a couple times already, should I work off the plan that the trunk is *not* going to get much thicker and it's a good time now for me to pick the tree's leader, think about where to make an angled cut from the chop, etc?

I realize this kind of a bassackwards question about how to proceed at this point. FWIW, I don't mind learning with this tree even if it doesn't have great potential.

Thanks!

 

[Sekibonsai]

That is not really "chopped"... more like "convenienced pruned". It will certainly continue to add girth if you let it. You want to chop when its about 2/3 the girth you want.

 

[Cajunrider]

That is not really "chopped"... more like "convenienced pruned". It will certainly continue to add girth if you let it. You want to chop when its about 2/3 the girth you want.

I agree. That tree was never really chopped. Under good growing conditions it can add inches in a hurry.

 

[bendem]

That is not really "chopped"... more like "convenienced pruned". It will certainly continue to add girth if you let it. You want to chop when its about 2/3 the girth you want.

Thanks for your feedback. That's good to hear. I realize the convenience pruning doesn't look as dramatic as what I've typically thought of as a trunk chop.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to think of the difference between a trunk pruning vs a trunk chop? Just as a hypothetical example with these numbers, say the tree will react as a trunk chop if 2/3-3/4 of its height is removed but will grow normally if 1/2 or less of the height is removed?

 

[Sekibonsai]

I think of it in terms of a push pull or a circular system of roots that supply the building blocks for growth and foliage that is the solar panel that provides the fuel to make it all happen. A bit simplistic as I don't get into things like hormonal effects and all that...

You've "hedged pruned it" and removed some of its food makers which will slow it down BUT there will be a foliage-root imbalance (which is a good thing) as there are ample roots intact and able to supply the building blocks. There will be some degree of back budding on the trunk and remaining branches as well to restore that foliage-root balance.

Some think that having all this lower new growth is helpful in avoiding a final product that is a fat post... usually wherever you have branches you have localized growth in circumference...

when I am whacking things back I go back to Fibonacci sequences or "asymetrical ratios".... so if I want a tall tree with a base 4" in diameter I might whack it at 8" or 12"... If I want a sumo I whack it at 4 or 6"... then you grow out a new apex or the next section... Meanwhile the base will increase a bit more but not necessarily at the same pace as originally.

 

[CapeFear盆景]

Thanks for your feedback. That's good to hear. I realize the convenience pruning doesn't look as dramatic as what I've typically thought of as a trunk chop.

Do you have any suggestions as to how to think of the difference between a trunk pruning vs a trunk chop? Just as a hypothetical example with these numbers, say the tree will react as a trunk chop if 2/3-3/4 of its height is removed but will grow normally if 1/2 or less of the height is removed?

Earlier this spring I did a trunk chop on my BC. I took it from about 5ft to 1ft and I have had plenty of growth over this season.

 

[PA_Penjing]

Not sure what website you bought this from but that is a Dawn redwood not a bald cypress. Very similar but I don't know if you want to be soaking a DR more than just occasionally

 

[bendem]

I think of it in terms of a push pull or a circular system of roots that supply the building blocks for growth and foliage that is the solar panel that provides the fuel to make it all happen. A bit simplistic as I don't get into things like hormonal effects and all that...

You've "hedged pruned it" and removed some of its food makers which will slow it down BUT there will be a foliage-root imbalance (which is a good thing) as there are ample roots intact and able to supply the building blocks. There will be some degree of back budding on the trunk and remaining branches as well to restore that foliage-root balance.

Some think that having all this lower new growth is helpful in avoiding a final product that is a fat post... usually wherever you have branches you have localized growth in circumference...

when I am whacking things back I go back to Fibonacci sequences or "asymetrical ratios".... so if I want a tall tree with a base 4" in diameter I might whack it at 8" or 12"... If I want a sumo I whack it at 4 or 6"... then you grow out a new apex or the next section... Meanwhile the base will increase a bit more but not necessarily at the same pace as originally.

Thanks very much for your detailed response. I hope you can please stay with me for one more question. So the tree's original apex was pruned, and now there's a tiny wound that's just about the size of a pencil eraser. I understand that should heal over. For the tree's future apex, is it correct that should come from a side branch that I'd choose as its new leader?

 

[Sekibonsai]

Usually you do an initial flat chop and work with the best backbud you get unless you see a clear leader that you want to use already in place in front. You let that leader grow a while and refine the chop site before it calluses over. On the new leader you will generally chop that back to one growing either backward or to a side to add gentle movement away from the obvious lean forward the original will have.

 

[bendem]

Not sure what website you bought this from but that is a Dawn redwood not a bald cypress. Very similar but I don't know if you want to be soaking a DR more than just occasionally

Hmm. I'm having a hard time telling the difference. Here are some close-ups of the leaves. The needles do look thicker and more rounded on the edges. Does this still look like dawn redwood in these shots?

 

[PA_Penjing]

dawn redwood has loose large growth like yours, but the actual tell tale is the opposite growth. Bald cypress has alternating leaflets and much finer smaller growth. They also have very light colored trunks, where as DR has that nice red color

 

[Sekibonsai]

dawn redwood has loose large growth like yours, but the actual tell tale is the opposite growth. Bald cypress has alternating leaflets and much finer smaller growth. They also have very light colored trunks, where as DR has that nice red color

DR also has coarser leaflets? A bit thicker?

BC will also have red trunks.

 

[PA_Penjing]

DR also has coarser leaflets? A bit thicker?

BC will also have red trunks.

yeah you can see that there is actual space between the (micro?)leaves on the leaflet. I haven't noticed the deep red trunks on bald cypress before, but I haven't spent a ton of times down south. I know that my BC definitely have orange roots but the trunks always seem to end up being fairly white-ish. Unfortunately you can tell the difference between the two from a mile away because of the DR coarse upturned branches (once mature) where as BC stay much more horizontal typically

 

[bendem]

dawn redwood has loose large growth like yours, but the actual tell tale is the opposite growth. Bald cypress has alternating leaflets and much finer smaller growth. They also have very light colored trunks, where as DR has that nice red color

I feel like I've been living a lie! ;-)

 

[Sekibonsai]

yeah you can see that there is actual space between the (micro?)leaves on the leaflet. I haven't noticed the deep red trunks on bald cypress before, but I haven't spent a ton of times down south. I know that my BC definitely have orange roots but the trunks always seem to end up being fairly white-ish. Unfortunately you can tell the difference between the two from a mile away because of the DR coarse upturned branches (once mature) where as BC stay much more horizontal typically

Many of mine have a red undertone that peeks through the bark here and there.

 

[Joe Dupre']

The magic question is "How big do you want the trunk?". Most people new to the hobby say "I'm not sure." The procedures differ GREATLY if you want a 1" trunk or a 4" trunk. If you want a 4" trunk, plant it in the biggest pot , kettle , barrel you can find and fertilize the heck out of it. In your climate, a 4" base can be had in about 4-6 years. In a standard bonsai pot, that may take 25 years.........if at all.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I guess that explains why the trunk hadn't been chopped to 16" a couple times. Actually they are but you ain't got one!

 

[LittleDingus]

Not sure what website you bought this from but that is a Dawn redwood not a bald cypress. Very similar but I don't know if you want to be soaking a DR more than just occasionally

Nice catch!

For the most part, the differences are minor as far as culture goes. My experience, however, is dawn redwoods can not tolerate long periods submerged like bald cypress can. They are fine submerged for a time, but they seem to start to suffer after more than a few days of constant submersion.

Bark wise, I find that bald cypress tends to have longer, flakier bark. Dawn redwoods tend to have shorter flakes. Cypress seems more papery as well.

Both tend to have red trunks for me...but my trunks tend to remain shaded. Cypress in full sun will grey and lighten. Redwood will not...at least I've never seen them lighten.

Personally, I prefer the dawn redwoods. Both are "easy" trees, but my redwoods tend to be more vigorous and turn into fuller trees. Style wise, you should be able to take either in the same directions.

 

[bendem]

Nice catch!

For the most part, the differences are minor as far as culture goes. My experience, however, is dawn redwoods can not tolerate long periods submerged like bald cypress can. They are fine submerged for a time, but they seem to start to suffer after more than a few days of constant submersion.

Bark wise, I find that bald cypress tends to have longer, flakier bark. Dawn redwoods tend to have shorter flakes. Cypress seems more papery as well.

Both tend to have red trunks for me...but my trunks tend to remain shaded. Cypress in full sun will grey and lighten. Redwood will not...at least I've never seen them lighten.

Personally, I prefer the dawn redwoods. Both are "easy" trees, but my redwoods tend to be more vigorous and turn into fuller trees. Style wise, you should be able to take either in the same directions.

Thanks for sharing this info. I took the tree out of the water this afternoon. It seems to be doing OK. I currently have these guys germinating on my deck, so I think I've still got some BC in my future.

 

[bendem]

Not sure what website you bought this from but that is a Dawn redwood not a bald cypress. Very similar but I don't know if you want to be soaking a DR more than just occasionally

So I took a closer look at the dawn redwood tree's trunk yesterday, and it definitely appears unhappy after I had its roots submerged in water the last couple weeks. The lowest few inches of the trunk are squishy. Here you can see where the trunk is cracking open. In another spot, a fingertip-sized piece of bark and cambium fell off (I've covered it with cut paste). And the tree looks green underneath its flakey bark from top to bottom.

Is this guy a goner? For what it's worth, I'm getting a refund from the seller because he sold it as a bald cypress.