Best time to take zelkova serrata cuttings and ( a question if is legal to propagate a cultivar if not selling but for only myself to use as bonsai

[tigerscott79]

So long story short hoping someone may know where a video or great post on rooting zelkova serrata cuttings , also if not using high tech things (some posts I've seen great equipment but thats out of my reach. The other question is when is best time for such cuttings and lastly ik its illegal to propagate culticars for sale but is it legal to propagate for myself to use as bonsai material that isn't forsale ever ? Honest question. If not legal then looking to grow normal zelkova serrata via seeds but places that carry are out of stock and would hopefully buy smaller one and take cuttings of that and not a cultivar one . (Thought would be stunning to make bonsai out of zelkova serrata 'goshiki' I have as a 8 ft tree but if not legal then bonsai out of normal zelkova instead. Sorry wordy post just unsure how explain it more clear so asking a bunch and hope isn't to painful to read through. Or if anyone knows anywhere that does sell smaller (4inch potted or even 2.5 inch potted ) zelkova serrata cultivars if is only legal way to bonsai them . No way do I want to break any laws ofc

 

[SeanS]

It’s illegal to propagate cultivars?

 

[tigerscott79]

It’s illegal to propagate cultivars?

I thought it was if you plant to sell them but wasnt sure if for own use if would be . At least thought thst becsuse many cultivars have patents (or new cultivars if registered) might be illegal . Idk figured if asked her might learn if its ok or not. Had hoped was legal if not selling becsuse I'd love to do few zelkova serrata "goshiki" bonsai as it has amazing variegated foliage though ik some might consider it otherwise . Since newer to bonsai idk

 

[ShadyStump]

I don't know for sure if it is illegal in the US, but I do know for sure there is no one running around checking.
As far as I know patents are only issued on genetically modified plants, and those are limited. There may be others here that know more.

Either way, unless you're opening up a whole nursery and trying to make big money, there's little interest or legal recourse for anyone to go after you. So go ahead and take your cuttings.
You can use the search function on this site to see previous discussions on how to take cuttings, and if you can find what you're looking for you can just ask. We're all here to help and share.

 

[19Mateo83]

Im with @ShadyStump on the legality question. Who is checking. If someone comes creeping in my back yard looking at my trees my German shepherd will happily answer any questions they may have. . I found your zelkova serrata seeds on Etsy. https://www.etsy.com/listing/1303265152/

 

[tigerscott79]

I don't know for sure if it is illegal in the US, but I do know for sure there is no one running around checking.
As far as I know patents are only issued on genetically modified plants, and those are limited. There may be others here that know more.

Either way, unless you're opening up a whole nursery and trying to make big money, there's little interest or legal recourse for anyone to go after you. So go ahead and take your cuttings.
You can use the search function on this site to see previous discussions on how to take cuttings, and if you can find what you're looking for you can just ask. We're all here to help and share.

Thank you . Yea mainly was wondering when to take cuttings , what size and process ect. Most things I'm finding online are using co2 machines chemicals (not just clonex or rooting powder) big greenhouses and spayer systems ect . I basically since on s.s.d.i. have basic conditions either outside or inside with flats ans grow lights . So trying get down when to take what size and such. Much of what I find ionline are Japanese maples or pines and juniper or fruit tree rootings and though some is simular ik each species have different conditions and methods of rooting depending on species and such

 

[tigerscott79]

Im with @ShadyStump on the legality question. Who is checking. If someone comes creeping in my back yard looking at my trees my German shepherd will happily answer any questions they may have. . I found your zelkova serrata seeds on Etsy. https://www.etsy.com/listing/1303265152/

Yea seen that before but often sellers online (Amazon eBay etsy ) sell seeds that aren't true to what they say there selling . Ik before I bought some feom others off those 3 sites and either recived weed seeds and grass or American elms and Chinese Elms versus zelkova so I've been hesitant unless others know them or of the being reputable or not. Ik I saw sheffields and fw shumans? But they were out of stock sadly at least for tkmr being

 

[19Mateo83]

Yea seen that before but often sellers online (Amazon eBay etsy ) sell seeds that aren't true to what they say there selling . Ik before I bought some feom others off those 3 sites and either recived weed seeds and grass or American elms and Chinese Elms versus zelkova so I've been hesitant unless others know them or of the being reputable or not. Ik I saw sheffields and fw shumans? But they were out of stock sadly at least for tkmr being

If you sign up for the “notify me when in stock” button on Sheffields they will email you.

 

[tigerscott79]

If you sign up for the “notify me when in stock” button on Sheffields they will email you.

Yea ive signed up just wasn't sure if they'd recive any befofe spring or if would be next fall so decided check her and see what others had or might know where to find . Hard to sit over winter and not have stuff to keep oneself busy so been trying to be proactive and searching . Makes me wish I was in warmer state to grow year round

 

[leatherback]

Legality is grey. Some cultivars are indeed protected (Yet I am not aware of Zelkova cultivars that are). But yeah, people creating cultivars need to make a living?

Whether it is a GOOD video but this is mine:

 

[andrewiles]

In the US, as far as I know, any plant with a plant patent, usually denoted with a PPAF number, cannot be propagated by any asexual means, even for personal use. That would seem to include cuttings, layers, etc. The patents last 20 years.

I think the personal use application is really out of touch, unenforced and mostly unenforceable. No company in their right mind would sue a customer for propagating a plant for their own garden. The pushback would be intense, regardless of the letter of the law. On top of that, most new patented cultivars are just discovered natural genetic mutations, either through seedlings or branches on an existing tree. There is no real invention here by the patent owner. I would be a bit more sympathetic to cases where a company genetically modifies a species to include a specific trait, etc. Common in agricultural crops. But not garden trees and shrubs.

So yeah, I wouldn't go selling a patented plant online. But the law seems pretty ill-conceived when it comes to personal use, and it's unlikely anyone would care about that use case.

 

[SeanS]

Back to your question about taking cuttings of Zelkova. Have a look at the video @leatherback made and posted above. Zelkova root and credibly easily from cuttings. I’ve only done them once the plants harden off in spring but they can be done in later winter I believe.

Cut some shoots from the tree, dip in your hormone of choice. Plant in damp perlite or other medium, cover with some sort of humidity apparatus and wait a few weeks, misting daily. You should notice roots out the bottom of the container and new top growth. You have now cloned a plant and multiplied it, well done.

 

[ShadyStump]

@SeanS laid out the gist of it alright.

A little more info for future reference.
There are basically 3 different types of cuttings you can do; softwood, hardwood, and semi-hardwood.
What @SeanS described is semi-hardwood. New spring growth, but wait until it starts to lignify, ie turn woody. Softwood cuttings are taken before the shoot lignifies, but the procedure is the same. I both cases you're looking for a stem about as thick as a match stick is, and you want multiple nodes in the rooting medium, and only a couple above that surface. This gives lots of opportunity for roots to start wherever they can, but you only need one good node to support foliage. Clip off all but one or two young leaves.
Hardwood cuttings can be trickier. You're picking a larger stem, about as thick as a pencil, and remove all the foliage. Then wrap the stem in a slightly moist paper towel, seal in a bag and then forget about it in the fridge for a month or more. This allows the stem to use it's resources to calus over the cut, building up stem cells that can eventually turn into root cells. After a while, stick the cutting in the same manner as described before.

The humidity apparatus he mentioned is just anything that will help hold humidity in around your cutting. A clear plastic bag or cup will work. You'll still want some ventilation or you'll start growing fungus, which feeds on the sugars in the stick that you'd rather go to growing roots. Cutting a small hole in the bottom of the cup, then placing it upside down over the cutting usually works well.
Any which way you go, go for bulk. 50% success rate is considered pretty darn good.

 

[tigerscott79]

@SeanS laid out the gist of it alright.

A little more info for future reference.
There are basically 3 different types of cuttings you can do; softwood, hardwood, and semi-hardwood.
What @SeanS described is semi-hardwood. New spring growth, but wait until it starts to lignify, ie turn woody. Softwood cuttings are taken before the shoot lignifies, but the procedure is the same. I both cases you're looking for a stem about as thick as a match stick is, and you want multiple nodes in the rooting medium, and only a couple above that surface. This gives lots of opportunity for roots to start wherever they can, but you only need one good node to support foliage. Clip off all but one or two young leaves.
Hardwood cuttings can be trickier. You're picking a larger stem, about as thick as a pencil, and remove all the foliage. Then wrap the stem in a slightly moist paper towel, seal in a bag and then forget about it in the fridge for a month or more. This allows the stem to use it's resources to calus over the cut, building up stem cells that can eventually turn into root cells. After a while, stick the cutting in the same manner as described before.

The humidity apparatus he mentioned is just anything that will help hold humidity in around your cutting. A clear plastic bag or cup will work. You'll still want some ventilation or you'll start growing fungus, which feeds on the sugars in the stick that you'd rather go to growing roots. Cutting a small hole in the bottom of the cup, then placing it upside down over the cutting usually works well.
Any which way you go, go for bulk. 50% success rate is considered pretty darn good.

Ty for great explanation

 

[tigerscott79]

Back to your question about taking cuttings of Zelkova. Have a look at the video @leatherback made and posted above. Zelkova root and credibly easily from cuttings. I’ve only done them once the plants harden off in spring but they can be done in later winter I believe.

Cut some shoots from the tree, dip in your hormone of choice. Plant in damp perlite or other medium, cover with some sort of humidity apparatus and wait a few weeks, misting daily. You should notice roots out the bottom of the container and new top growth. You have now cloned a plant and multiplied it, well done.

Ty for great explaining

 

[ShadyStump]

Ty for great explanation

That's the starter info. We won't overwhelm you with the biology of it all right now, but once you get that down it all starts to make a whole other level of sense.

 

[tigerscott79]

That's the starter info. We won't overwhelm you with the biology of it all right now, but once you get that down it all starts to make a whole other level of sense.

Ty . Was pretty sure taking cuttings mid winter wouldn't be viable per say so figured would ask when and how and hopefully I'll be able get a few to strike?/root

 

[SeanS]

I’ll say this much, based on my experience with elm/Zelkova cuttings: if you can’t get a few to root then you may want to relook your understanding and execution of the basics as @ShadyStump put it. I’ve found elms/zelkovas to be very easy to root from cuttings.

 

[tigerscott79]

I’ll say this much, based on my experience with elm/Zelkova cuttings: if you can’t get a few to root then you may want to relook your understanding and execution of the basics as @ShadyStump put it. I’ve found elms/zelkovas to be very easy to root from cuttings.

Yea this would be the cultivar "goshiki " which is beautifully variegated but not as vigorous as plan species/green but is more vigorous then the cultivar variegata. So just trying line up how to and when's and different methods buy I believe I understand whats been posted . Just a matter or waiting til it's proper time , just nasty as would have been great to be able take few cuttings and root some over winter while stuck waiting for spring . Very greatful to everyone's info and help

 

[Chuah]

I thought it was if you plant to sell them but wasnt sure if for own use if would be . At least thought thst becsuse many cultivars have patents (or new cultivars if registered) might be illegal . Idk figured if asked her might learn if its ok or not. Had hoped was legal if not selling becsuse I'd love to do few zelkova serrata "goshiki" bonsai as it has amazing variegated foliage though ik some might consider it otherwise . Since newer to bonsai idk

As far as I know, patent is country specific. If it is patented in Japan but not in the US, then it has no standing in the US. You can search ”Zelkova” , “Goshiki” in the US Patent Office website and see if you get any hit. Patenting is expensive and it has to be maintained regularly by paying fees. If not, it might be considered abandoned.