Are there ways to reduce salts in the substrate without rainwater?

[proninyaroslav]

I live in an area where the summers are quite dry. Therefore, there are problems with collecting rainwater, and I have to water mainly with tap water (about 300 ppm). I also apply mineral fertilizers once a week. Most trees respond well, but some seem to show signs of excess salts (dry edges of leaves). Are there any ways to reduce the amount of salts, maybe add citric acid to dissolve salts and remove them with watering? Any alternatives to rainwater harvesting or using osmotic water.

 

[Colorado]

Well, the salt is mostly coming from the water and fertilizer, right? I think that reducing the salt in the water and fertilizer is really the only way.

I could be mistaken, but I believe that chemical/“mineral” fertilizers contain more salts than organic fertilizers.

For the water, perhaps you could install some sort of filtration system?

Good question, I am also interested in further responses.

 

[proninyaroslav]

Well, the salt is mostly coming from the water and fertilizer, right? I think that reducing the salt in the water and fertilizer is really the only way

Usually if I see signs of excess salts I reduce the frequency of fertilization. But I wondered how optimal this is for other trees. Even if they don't show signs of excess. I know that some artists and hobbyists use much more fertilizer in the development stage, but we must take into account the presence of constant rains in the summer.The question arises as to how to apply this experience to dry climate.

 

[Glaucus]

RO water or demi (distilled) water. Tap water will also flush out some fertilizer. Not sure what would be the best treatment or measure for over fertilizing though.

 

[Wood]

Andrew Robson has mentioned that he doesn't see damage from salt build up in volcanic substrates, because it's so open and porous that the salts wash out before any real accumulation happens. Are you using those types of soils? He's also in an area that has significant dormant season rainfall to wash salts out of the soil, which it sounds like you don't

Not exactly sure how that intersects with 300pm TDS water. That's pretty hard water

 

[BrianBay9]

Start with your bonsai soil. You can use materials that retain fertilizers and salts, or those that do not.

 

[Coppersdad]

RO water or demi (distilled) water. Tap water will also flush out some fertilizer. Not sure what would be the best treatment or measure for over fertilizing though.

Also, depending on your tap water and, of course, safety for your trees, extremely heavy watering and immersion watering for a bit longer amount of time will also begin to reduce precipitated salts.

 

[Applicative]

Been reading a bit on this topic as I find it interesting. When you say salts do you mean sodium in your water?

"salts" can mean a lot of things.

there's also something to be said about how plants absorb nutrients through proton pumps where ions then are exchanged for cations into the plant. This also relates to the EC or electrical conductivity. I know @cmeg1 talks about this a lot.

The rainfall thing was also something Ryan Neil and apical mentioned about akadama breaking down and becoming toxic to his high desert plants; and speculated that Japanese long rain seasons helps to flush this.

anyway interested in the topic, my water shows about 25-30 ppm sodium and noticed specifically in Japanese maples really sensitive to nutrition when compared to conifers.



"Plants take up essential elements from the soil through their roots and from the air through their leaves. Nutrient uptake in the soil is achieved by cation exchange, wherein root hairs pump hydrogen ions (H+) into the soil through proton pumps. These hydrogen ions displace cations attached to negatively charged soil particles so that the cations are available for uptake by the root."

 

[BonsaiManic]

I'm also curious about this. Living in the desert Southwest, heat without precipitation is the biggest challenge. If we don't get rainfall, we can't collect good clean rainwater. We average around an inch a month here.

 

[Glaucus]

When he says 'salts' in the context of fertilizer, he means ammonium nitrate, potassium phosphate, etc. But yes, a base load of salts also add to this. sodium in the tap water is especially undesirable. It takes up binding sites in the soil that otherwise could be occupied by minerals the plant wants. Some plants are indeed sensitive to sodium and cannot be grown near the coast, where coastal winds can bring a lot of sodium to the plants.
But back to tap water, a lot of the ppm/TDS/EC can also come from water hardness, namely calcium carbonate, magnesium carbonate.

 

[proninyaroslav]

Andrew Robson has mentioned that he doesn't see damage from salt build up in volcanic substrates, because it's so open and porous that the salts wash out before any real accumulation happens. Are you using those types of soils?

Yes

"salts" can mean a lot of things.

Salts of calcium, magnesium, and other fertilizers.

RO water or demi (distilled) water.

Yes, it is an option, but not as free as rain How often should this be done?

 

[Kievnstavick]

Do you incorporate a flushing cycle when you water? John Eads has mentioned that he heavily fertilizes at every watering except for 1 day a week where he just runs water without any additives in order to flush out any accumulation of unused salts.

Another idea if you want to stick to synetic fertilizer is moving to a more customized application strength of the different minerals. All of the extra minerals that the plant is not using will either hang around in your substrate or immediately get flushed out. By tailoring it to your needs, you can potentially reduce the overall accumulation of unused minerals.

Just a little food for thought and to add to the discussion.

 

[proninyaroslav]

Do you incorporate a flushing cycle when you water?

Yes, in summer it's every day and with some trees twice a day. I read Leo's posts on the forum and he said that having low TDS water is still a necessary thing to flush out excess salt.

 

[Shibui]

Watering more when you water is the key to reducing excess salts in pots.
When you just water enough to wet the soil the water is taken in by roots and evaporates leaving excess minerals (salts) If you continue to water this way excess builds up quickly, more so in summer.
When you water so that plenty of fresh water runs through the soil and out of the bottom of the pot, that water draining through should also take accumulated salts with it.

If the water is so high in salts that it can't flush the soil it would be close to toxic to plants already.

 

[cmeg1]

25-35 ppm is considered pure ro water

Now sodium?
Or total dissolved solids?

I need to research

 

[proninyaroslav]

Or total dissolved solids?

Yes. Calcium, magnesium, etc. The total hardness of my water is about 300 ppm.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

You can, in theory, flush your soil with chelators that bring the salts back into solution. Practically, that doesn't make sense though.
Citric acid can and will dissolve most salts, and flushing the soil with rain water set to a pH of 5.5 with citric acid might do the trick.

Keep in mind that citric acid is a weak acid and that it buffers, so setting the pH without measuring an hour later and start adding more citric acid to get the pH to stay stable, is part of the plan.
Flush with regular rain water afterwards and the plants will not skip a beat.

 

[proninyaroslav]

Citric acid can and will dissolve most salts, and flushing the soil with rain water set to a pH of 5.5 with citric acid might do the trick.

How often should this be done, How do you think?

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

How often should this be done, How do you think?

I don't know. My plants get flushed with rain water all winter.
So if I would do this, maybe once a year at the start of fall to remove most salts. The rain can do the rest.

My last comment hinted towards not measuring again an hour later, but you should in fact, re measure an hour later.

 

[cmeg1]

Yes. Calcium, magnesium, etc. The total hardness of my water is about 300 p

Yes. Calcium, magnesium, etc. The total hardness of my water is about 300 ppm.

I suggest an RO FILTER….Hydrologic 150?

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@ your 300 ppm tap water that is definately the reason for a overfertilized look to your plants…….I sometimes water plants at 300 ppm for months!!
300 ppm will make a seedling strength fertilizer an early veg strength.
A lot of the dryness is simply that…….not enough moisture being transpired by the plant to stay cool……..

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Also there has been reports of the calcium and magnesium in natural water ( tap water) being to large of an ion to even be absorbed properly………the hydroponic cal/mag is made for this and does a fine job.

The 150 ro above gets my city tap with chloromine down to 10 ppm……definately use the improved kdn filter if chloromine is involved.

Also calcium is transpired into the plant by water transpiration one ion at a time so if salt is constricting water transpiration they will lack calcium…….unless using calcium chelaters and amino acids that will build calcium iin channels onto the roots to increase the uptake by 1000 x!!