Are my JBPs ready to have me cut back the candles this early?

[River's Edge]

So you leave the lower branches alone doing growing out period too?

I thought I had read somewhere than esp for shohin you may want to decandle the lower branches to keep them from getting too beefy

So I’m curious as I don’t want to set myself back

if you wish to prune to slow the growth on a particular branch go for it. If you grow out a bit then cut back you will increase the chances of back budding occurring on the lower branch and increasing shoot density closer to the trunk It is then possible to cut back to new shoots and compact the branch while removing a section that became thicker.
if you note my comments above I mentioned selecting bud removal based on desiring stronger growth or bifurcation. Another method to slow branch growth.
Decandling can slow growth and may be very appropriate in certain circumstances. One should still consider the balance of growth and foliage available before deciding.
There are a number of methods to slow growth. Remove needles, remove central bud, cut back into the existing needles or decandle will all weaken or slow growth. The sooner you develop new side shoots closer to the trunk the more options you will have to compact and continue to induce back budding.

 

[River's Edge]

Same. I think the answer to OP's initial question might depend on his goals.

Absolutely and there is more than one method. It will vary upon the growers assessment of the situation. How they see the stage of development and available options due to the health and vigour of the tree. I tend to favour longer period of grow out to provide stronger cutback options and responses. I personally would not expect bud back on the trunk by decandling or cutting back the existing apical sacrifice leader.

 

[badatusernames]

if you wish to prune to slow the growth on a particular branch go for it. If you grow out a bit then cut back you will increase the chances of back budding occurring on the lower branch and increasing shoot density closer to the trunk It is then possible to cut back to new shoots and compact the branch while removing a section that became thicker.
if you note my comments above I mentioned selecting bud removal based on desiring stronger growth or bifurcation. Another method to slow branch growth.
Decandling can slow growth and may be very appropriate in certain circumstances. One should still consider the balance of growth and foliage available before deciding.
There are a number of methods to slow growth. Remove needles, remove central bud, cut back into the existing needles or decandle will all weaken or slow growth. The sooner you develop new side shoots closer to the trunk the more options you will have to compact and continue to induce back budding.

Makes sense! Thank you

 

[CaptColin]

OP, listen to this and then listen to it again! Great insight in addition to the knowledge that has already been added here.

Telperion Farms | Bonsai Mirai: Asymmetry

In this episode of Asymmetry, Ryan sits down with Telperion Farms owner Chris Kirk and his collaborator Gary Woods to dive into the intricacies of field-grown bonsai material. They discuss the nuances of timing, preparing the material before it’s planted in the field, adding movement, pruning...

bonsaimirai.podbean.com

 

[pandacular]

Same. I think the answer to OP's initial question might depend on his goals.

If the goal is to have a good tree, he’ll let it grow and not decandle for another few years. If the goal is to decandle, then, well…

 

[Wulfskaar]

If the goal is to have a good tree, he’ll let it grow and not decandle for another few years. If the goal is to decandle, then, well…

Maybe so. Or maybe he doesn't want a large tree. Maybe he wants a shohin-sized tree. Or maybe he wants to do something avant-garde.

To say his tree won't be good if he prunes candles in the next 2 years seems closed-minded and short-sighted.

Here's Eric Schraeder decandling similarly-sized JBP to make smaller bonsai.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Funny have been training my smaller JBP’s for two years using Eric’s course. That’s what provoked my earlier responses.

But not mentioning Eric’s technique provoked some really awesome responses, which were solid, for us Nutters to learn from,..

There’s more than one way to skin, I mean grow, a JBP bonsai.

Best to all
DSD sends

 

[Ryceman3]

How you develop your trees (JBP) depends on a multitude of things. Some relate to experience and skill , some relate to climate and conditions, some relate to end goals for the tree, all consider timing and then there are the usual suspects like patience and commitment which give credence to a plan.
I’m not really saying anything more than has already been said, but there’s absolutely more than one way to achieve an end goal… and there’s plenty of progression threads that you can reference with successful outcomes that show this.
Your job, if you need to, becomes sifting the gold from the internet junk. If you can do that and adapt what you find to your own environment (it’s rare to just be able to blindly follow all advice when it comes to bonsai and environmental factors)… you’ll hopefully send your trees down a solid developmental plan.
If not, hopefully at the very least you will learn from the experience. Generally speaking, advice is positive at this stage.

 

[ponderingsage]

This is a great thread and a good question because a lot of people have black pines just starting out including myself.

I might suggest since you have 30+ trees growing you could experiment with a few and see what happens.

Also, Jonas has a great video on Bjorns platform- Bonsai U.

 

[pandacular]

My main point is that the question is likely putting the cart before the horse. Eric’s trees differ in a few key ways, namely that they’re a large batch in tiny pots. If the goal is a very small tree, then the current trunk line and container don’t seem to correspond to that. If the goal is trunk thickening, I would avoid decandling. My growing teacher has taught that you should begin decandling when your trunk is about 80% of your final caliper.

Here’s an excellent guide from Jonas:

Decandling black pine bonsai - an in-depth guide - Bonsai Tonight

An in-depth guide to decandling black and red pine bonsai with how-to steps that provide all the information you'll need to get started.

bonsaitonight.com

 

[Wulfskaar]

My main point is that the question is likely putting the cart before the horse. Eric’s trees differ in a few key ways, namely that they’re a large batch in tiny pots. If the goal is a very small tree, then the current trunk line and container don’t seem to correspond to that. If the goal is trunk thickening, I would avoid decandling. My growing teacher has taught that you should begin decandling when your trunk is about 80% of your final caliper.

Here’s an excellent guide from Jonas:

Decandling black pine bonsai - an in-depth guide - Bonsai Tonight

An in-depth guide to decandling black and red pine bonsai with how-to steps that provide all the information you'll need to get started.

bonsaitonight.com

I definitely have a lot more to learn.

I've got about a dozen JBP and I'm trying as many different things as I can: root-over-rock, literati, fat stumpy, several shohin, neagari, etc.

 

[pandacular]

I definitely have a lot more to learn.

That makes two of us—or really….how many users are on this forum?

Admittedly, my initial comment was a bit incendiary, on purpose. I believe that the first big hurdle to learning this craft is understanding just how differently we ought to handle young and old material.

 

[Wulfskaar]

That makes two of us—or really….how many users are on this forum?

Admittedly, my initial comment was a bit incendiary, on purpose. I believe that the first big hurdle to learning this craft is understanding just how differently we ought to handle young and old material.

My reply was a bit more condescending than I intended, now that I reread it. I'm no expert here.

Talking through these things is how we learn (in addition to killing trees or stunting their development). I think it's a good thing. That's why we're all here!

My main issue is that the more I learn, the more questions I have.

 

[Shohin_51]

Timing of decandling depends on when cold weather typically starts in your area.
Here, we decandle JBP the last week of June to July 4th or about 100 days before cold weather typically comes

If recent history tells me anything, I don't expect to see cool weather until mid to late December.
I'm looking for 3 flushes of growth on some of my pines.

 

[Shohin_51]

I was just in Phoenix over the weekend doing workshops with the club. I saw strong candle growth similar to what we are showing here in the LA area. But that has no bearing on changing the timing of decandling.

If you decandle now the new shoots will begin forming and they will grow all the way until the fall dormancy, resulting in another long internode. The later you decandle the shorter the new shoots, and therefore the shorter your internodes will be. This is why decandling is usually done in summer. June if your winter comes earlier, July if your winter comes later, and maybe August if you have shohin that need really small internodes. In Phoenix I usually recommend waiting until 4th of July to decandle.

Your tree isn’t really a tree yet, if you’re just looking to get growth and trunk caliper there’s no need to decandle this year.

I was actually hoping for 3

If recent history tells me anything, I don't expect to see cool weather until mid to late December.
I'm looking for 3 flushes of growth on some of my pines.

Last year I had 2 1/2 flushes. They wanted to go a third time, but I think I wasn't feeding them enough. This year they are much better fed.

 

[Shohin_51]

Decandling.

Actually, decandling and pruning. I wanted to get rid of some of the long internodes. Some of my trees have areas of needles that I could cut back to, instead of just decandling.

 

[pandacular]

If you’re trying to push for three flushes of growth, I’d say go for it as an experiment! Could be cool to see, especially if you have a few different trees to test, run controls, etc. It’s not something I’ve heard of happening, but Phoenix is obviously a very different place than the PNW or Japan.

 

[Shohin_51]

If you’re trying to push for three flushes of growth, I’d say go for it as an experiment! Could be cool to see, especially if you have a few different trees to test, run controls, etc. It’s not something I’ve heard of happening, but Phoenix is obviously a very different place than the PNW or Japan.

That makes two of us—or really….how many users are on this forum?

Admittedly, my initial comment was a bit incendiary, on purpose. I believe that the first big hurdle to learning this craft is understanding just how differently we ought to handle young and old material.

I do understand what you're saying about young/old material. I do need to put more time into just letting them thicken up.
I'm going to let most of my trees just grow right now, but a few of them, I'm going to experiment with here a little bit. It's going to rattle around in my head now until I try it. I have a plan in my head. I need to get it on paper and start cutting back.

 

[Shohin_51]

Thank you to everyone. I really do appreciate all of the input and photos. Especially those that challenge me. I really need that. I have so much more to learn. I'll keep you informed of my progress and problems.

 

[River's Edge]

I do understand what you're saying about young/old material. I do need to put more time into just letting them thicken up.
I'm going to let most of my trees just grow right now, but a few of them, I'm going to experiment with here a little bit. It's going to rattle around in my head now until I try it. I have a plan in my head. I need to get it on paper and start cutting back.

If possible acquire the DVD produced by Boon on Decandling. He breaks it down into two separate approaches. One for trees in Training to accomplish certain aspects of development. The other on mature trees using decandling for refinement and maintenance purposes. By viewing the examples he demonstrates with it is easier to see and understand the health and condition one try to achieve and maintain before using these techniques. It is also very clear how patient and further along in the development process one should be before beginning to use these techniques on either stage presented.