Are my JBPs ready to have me cut back the candles this early?

[Shohin_51]

There were some buds left from last year from an unfinished third flush. So it's not a shock that those would be popping early, but almost all of my 23 JBPs are looking ready too.
They are apparently very happy with all the sunshine here in Phoenix (9b).
I guess I'm just looking for verification, before I cut. I'm planning to cut them back fairly severely. I need backbudding really badly. Most of these trees have only 1 or 2 small branches at the bottom.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I personally would give them another week.
The needle munching caterpillar behavior the candle cutting is based on tends to happen when the needles start unfolding.

 

[WIlliam_Butler_Yeets]

jeez, Phoenix is no joke, they usually aren't ready here until June or so

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Yes. Was just done in Scottsdale for over a week. The weather has really taken a turn for the hot.

Would definitely cut the ones extending separate fasciles now, except for the ones atop those sacrifice branches. Those leaves alone to do their job until a transition is made to another sacrifice. Take care of those little branches on the bottom. Those are where your tree will actually come from.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[SeanS]

I’m not clear on what we’re discussing here; Decandling or some pruning?

 

[Ruddigger]

I was just in Phoenix over the weekend doing workshops with the club. I saw strong candle growth similar to what we are showing here in the LA area. But that has no bearing on changing the timing of decandling.

If you decandle now the new shoots will begin forming and they will grow all the way until the fall dormancy, resulting in another long internode. The later you decandle the shorter the new shoots, and therefore the shorter your internodes will be. This is why decandling is usually done in summer. June if your winter comes earlier, July if your winter comes later, and maybe August if you have shohin that need really small internodes. In Phoenix I usually recommend waiting until 4th of July to decandle.

Your tree isn’t really a tree yet, if you’re just looking to get growth and trunk caliper there’s no need to decandle this year.

 

[SeanS]

I was just in Phoenix over the weekend doing workshops with the club. I saw strong candle growth similar to what we are showing here in the LA area. But that has no bearing on changing the timing of decandling.

If you decandle now the new shoots will begin forming and they will grow all the way until the fall dormancy, resulting in another long internode. The later you decandle the shorter the new shoots, and therefore the shorter your internodes will be. This is why decandling is usually done in summer. June if your winter comes earlier, July if your winter comes later, and maybe August if you have shohin that need really small internodes. In Phoenix I usually recommend waiting until 4th of July to decandle.

Your tree isn’t really a tree yet, if you’re just looking to get growth and trunk caliper there’s no need to decandle this year.

That’s why I asked my question. The title mentions cutting candles (maybe decandling?) but the post mentions cutting the tree back hard.
What are we discussing here so we can give appropriate feedback.
@Ruddigger hit the nail on the head regarding decandling timing. You should only be decandling around 100 days before dormancy to reduce needle length on the subsequent new shoots.

 

[Paradox]

Timing of decandling depends on when cold weather typically starts in your area.
Here, we decandle JBP the last week of June to July 4th or about 100 days before cold weather typically comes

 

[Shohin_51]

I’m not clear on what we’re discussing here; Decandling or some pruning?

Decandling.

 

[River's Edge]

Has anyone considered the stage of development? The trees appear to require further growth and foliage prior to cutback if one does not want to slow down development. I see little evidence of strong apical sacrifice leaders and sacrifice branches to work with at this point.
I think better results would be obtained with patience and longer periods between cut back. Decandling is not normally used for back budding purposes in any case.
I question the purpose of decandling at this stage of development.

 

[Ruddigger]

Has anyone considered the stage of development? The trees appear to require further growth and foliage prior to cutback if one does not want to slow down development.

I mean, I did say that.

But yes, I agree.

 

[River's Edge]

I mean, I did say that.

But yes, I agree.

I know you did, Not sure anyone was listening based on the responses! Thought by wording it a bit differently. Well who knows?

 

[Ruddigger]

I know you did, Not sure anyone was listening based on the responses! Thought by wording it a bit differently. Well who knows?

You’re the man Frank.

 

[Paradox]

Has anyone considered the stage of development? The trees appear to require further growth and foliage prior to cutback if one does not want to slow down development. I see little evidence of strong apical sacrifice leaders and sacrifice branches to work with at this point.
I think better results would be obtained with patience and longer periods between cut back. Decandling is not normally used for back budding purposes in any case.
I question the purpose of decandling at this stage of development.

Yea I would also agree, the trees pictured are still pretty young and if the OP wants a bigger trunk then letting then grow would be the better option at this time.

 

[Wulfskaar]

@River's Edge @Ruddigger

Isn't it important to gain low branching early on pines?

Then, once you have the lower branches you want, then worry about growing a huge sacrifice?

I ask because this is the strategy I'm using for most of my JBP. I want to get the structure there first, then worry about thickening. Is this wrong?

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Learn something new everyday!

Seemed very clear there were a couple possible prominent“sacrifice branches”. Here were only a few that grabbed my eye



Guess I was assuming the intent was to grow these out to shohin or slightly larger trees vs much larger trees.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[River's Edge]

@River's Edge @Ruddigger

Isn't it important to gain low branching early on pines?

Then, once you have the lower branches you want, then worry about growing a huge sacrifice?

I ask because this is the strategy I'm using for most of my JBP. I want to get the structure there first, then worry about thickening. Is this wrong?

It is important to develop. lower branching as you go along. Much more important in Shohin than larger sizes.
The. key aspect is to balance the growing out n order to have substantial foliage left after cut back to induce back budding. Moving too soon and too often simply weakens the tree and delays or stops development.
In this case the trees appear young with less foliage than one would want for substantial cut back. Doing so at this point would leave the lower portions with basically needles and one or two shoots.
Trees respond best when vigorous and displaying well balanced foliage.
If I was to suggest any step at this point I would reduce some needles on the lower portion of the apical sacrifice leaders to send more energy to the existing lower branches and foliage. But not below the shoot that will be used for the next sacrifice leader.
When the sacrifice candles are much thicker and taller cutting back to the next sacrifice leader should endure substantial back budding. Removing a candle at the base of the candle creates buds mostly at that point.
Perhaps these diagram will help clarify my comments. two pictures of five year old JBP. The back budding on lower portion is to be expected when larger apical sacrifice leaders are cut.
Hope the comments help. Note how the foliage is kept in balance. I would expect to let a tree like this five year old thicken and grow out for two full years before any further work or cut back. Except I would thin apical candles to one on sacrifice branches tp promote extension. I would thin apical buds to two on primary branches to promote additional shoots and foliage in the lower portion of the tree.

 

[River's Edge]

Learn something new everyday!

Seemed very clear there were a couple possible prominent“sacrifice branches”. Here were only a few that grabbed my eye

View attachment 591320

Guess I was assuming the intent was to grow these out to shohin or slightly larger trees vs much larger trees.

Cheers
DSD sends

From my point of view they Look like nice size apical candles. Possibly on two separate trees in the photo. I consider an apical sacrifice branch ready for cut back to look more like this in development. First picture.The tape indicating cutting back to the next apical leader. A key consideration is also the amount of foliage that will remain after cutback and its location. The degree of response varies with the overall health of the tree and the degree of cutback.
When Jonas shows shohin development the apical sacrifice leaders are more in line with the second and third pictures below just to give a second perspective. Note how thick the apical leaders are in the second picture and the remaining stubs in the last picture. These are Jonas pictures the last two. First shows the early stage and second the staged trunk reduction now that the base has thickened and lower branching in place. Approximately 15 years between the pictures I believe from his labeling!
key points. growth before cutback, time allowed and staging the cut back with multiple sacrifice leaders Hope the comments help. thanks to Jonas for use of his photos.


.

 

[badatusernames]

From my point of view they Look like nice size apical candles. Possibly on two separate trees in the photo. I consider an apical sacrifice branch ready for cut back to look more like this in development. First picture.The tape indicating cutting back to the next apical leader. A key consideration is also the amount of foliage that will remain after cutback and its location. The degree of response varies with the overall health of the tree and the degree of cutback.
When Jonas shows shohin development the apical sacrifice leaders are more in line with the second and third pictures below just to give a second perspective. Note how thick the apical leaders are in the second picture and the remaining stubs in the last picture. These are Jonas pictures the last two. First shows the early stage and second the staged trunk reduction now that the base has thickened and lower branching in place. Approximately 15 years between the pictures I believe from his labeling!
key points. growth before cutback, time allowed and staging the cut back with multiple sacrifice leaders Hope the comments help. thanks to Jonas for use of his photos.


. View attachment 591350View attachment 591352View attachment 591353

So you leave the lower branches alone doing growing out period too?

I thought I had read somewhere than esp for shohin you may want to decandle the lower branches to keep them from getting too beefy

So I’m curious as I don’t want to set myself back

 

[Wulfskaar]

So you leave the lower branches alone doing growing out period too?

I thought I had read somewhere than esp for shohin you may want to decandle the lower branches to keep them from getting too beefy

So I’m curious as I don’t want to set myself back

Same. I think the answer to OP's initial question might depend on his goals.