Anyone with picea orientalis?

[b3bowen]

Does anyone have any good examples of oriental spruce that they are currently growing. Can’t find any real good examples, but they seem to grow very densely, and are a great option for me since I’m in a warmer climate (7b). The very dark needles are also a plus I think. I have a small seedling that I bought last year. Was basically full bare rooted and placed into akadama, lava and pumice this spring. It had to be bare rooted, because the prior potting media was basically pure Peat. It never skipped a beat, pushed out strong spring growth, and now appears to be back budding very strongly (even directly on the trunk).

 

[b3bowen]

As a follow-up question for those who may be growing them/other spruce, what are your suggestions on getting the trunk to thicken. If I just let the whole thing grow, all my branches will get long and leggy and it will be difficult to reign it back in. Should I pick strategic branches up the trunk to grow as strong sacrifice branches, while keeping some branches trimmed back close to the trunk to give me options in the future?

 

[HorseloverFat]

I do not...

But if I remember correctly, @Leo in N E Illinois has one. (Sorry if i sent the telegraph for nothing, Leo.)

I sincerely hope that you find the answers you seek.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I do own a Picea orientalis, Caucasian Spruce, (not a race thing, its named for the mountain range is comes from). Mine is not a whole lot more advanced than yours. But I have seen a well developed P. orientalis, it currently resides at the Lynden Sculpture Garden, the Milwaukee Bonsai Foundation collection. I believe it was donated to the MBF Collection by Michelle Z. You can see that it can be developed much like the Japanese species Picea jezoensis and Picea glehnii.

Lynden Sculpture Garden MBF collection.


A shot of the foliage of mine



Your plan to let some branches escape and to keep well placed branches short and tight to the trunk while trunk diameter is being developed is appropriate. The foliage of Picea orientalis is very dense and will quickly shade out interior growth. They will not back bud reliably on old wood. You might get some, but it won't be much, and not likely where you want it. They do back bud better than Hinoki, but not a lot better.

 

[b3bowen]

This tree continues to grow well. Growth is well ramified without any special effort.



Compare to similarly aged ezo spruce.

 

[b3bowen]

Also though your not supposed to, the tree was bare rooted (carefully) again this year. I figure that since this tree is being grown out from the beginning it may as well have some good nabari. Clearly it did not mind. I will likely just half bare root in the future.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I like where your orientalis is headed. I think they are one of the better spruce species to use for bonsai. And because they tolerate warm summers better than Picea glehnii, they should be used much more. Picea orientalis is pretty widely available in the North American landscape industry, so availability is not an issue.

 

[Bonsai butcher]

I just obtained a fat one at Home Depot 1/2 off this year. Looking forward to learning the species also. Following the thread, will also share my findings.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I got one for my birthday, but she took it back because she loved it and couldn't stand seeing me butcher it.

It is very beautiful so we're going to be growing it as a normal tree.

 

[b3bowen]

Anybody recognize this problem? It does not appear to be progressive. The brown tip needles appear to be on the more apical branches. I fertilize with organic fertilizer about once a month according to the bag instructions. The tree is in acadama, pumice, lava at a 2-1-1 ratio. I have not used any pesticide or fungicide. Lower branches look perfectly healthy.

 

[Wulfskaar]

This happened to mine. It got scorched in the sun. I gave it less sun and more water and it stopped deteriorating. Did you get a lot of heat and sun recently?

 

[Potawatomi13]

Anybody recognize this problem? It does not appear to be progressive. The brown tip needles appear to be on the more apical branches. I fertilize with organic fertilizer about once a month according to the bag instructions. The tree is in acadama, pumice, lava at a 2-1-1 ratio. I have not used any pesticide or fungicide. Lower branches look perfectly healthy. View attachment 390752View attachment 390753

Looks like bud moths. Unfortunately these have affinity for personal Bristlecone Pines.

 

[Vance Wood]

As a follow-up question for those who may be growing them/other spruce, what are your suggestions on getting the trunk to thicken. If I just let the whole thing grow, all my branches will get long and leggy and it will be difficult to reign it back in. Should I pick strategic branches up the trunk to grow as strong sacrifice branches, while keeping some branches trimmed back close to the trunk to give me options in the future?

Put them in he ground or a very large pot and stop pruning off the side branches until the trunk thickens up.

 

[b3bowen]

This happened to mine. It got scorched in the sun. I gave it less sun and more water and it stopped deteriorating. Did you get a lot of heat and sun recently?

The needles have looked like this for at least a month, and it doesn’t appear to be getting worse. It’s possible that the pot could’ve gotten a little dry one day on a hot day and that did it. Just wanted to make sure that it wasn’t immediately recognizable as some other pest.

 

[Wulfskaar]

The needles have looked like this for at least a month, and it doesn’t appear to be getting worse. It’s possible that the pot could’ve gotten a little dry one day on a hot day and that did it. Just wanted to make sure that it wasn’t immediately recognizable as some other pest.

I can't say for sure... just what happened to mine. I think it's a good idea to listen to the other theories as well in case it is fungus or pests.

On mine, when I touched the yellow needles, they just fell off. The leader is now without needles.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Anytime the newest foliage only dies as pictured in post #10 above you can assume the tree has been subjected to drought and high temperatures at the same time. Human error with potted plants.

 

[hinmo24t]

i bet its from sun as well


great looking tree species in my opinion


i had a couple spots of it on my eastern spruce and shade/water stopped it

 

[Forsoothe!]

i bet its from sun as well


great looking tree species in my opinion


i had a couple spots of it on my eastern spruce and shade/water stopped it

No! Full sun is not optional for SPF. This goes back to the other thread where someone compensated for not watering enough by moving something (Larch?) out of full sun. The potting media has to match the needs of the tree and the watering habits/abilities of the keeper. It should hold enough water for the tree's needs and dry out inbetween each watering. If it doesn't work, something has to change, or be changed. It doesn't matter which one is changed, but either the media needs to hold more (or less) water, or the keeper has to change his schedule.

 

[Wulfskaar]

I put an umbrella over mine and it's looking much better. The crispiness is gone and the needles feel soft and look green again. It still gets sun but not during mid-day.

@Forsoothe! Please correct me if I'm wrong. If tree X's natural range has 150 sunny days per year, then putting it in full sun where there is 250 sunny days per year may be too much.

I feel that your full sun in Michigan is not the same as my full sun in southern California. Therefore, tree X, which requires full sun in it's own natural range, might not do great where it gets a lot more sun somewhere else?

EDIT: I just looked and I apparently get 268 sunny days per year. Michigan gets about 170, so my uneducated guesses in my example were pretty close!

 

[Forsoothe!]

I put an umbrella over mine and it's looking much better. The crispiness is gone and the needles feel soft and look green again. It still gets sun but not during mid-day.

@Forsoothe! Please correct me if I'm wrong. If tree X's natural range has 150 sunny days per year, then putting it in full sun where there is 250 sunny days per year may be too much.

I feel that your full sun in Michigan is not the same as my full sun in southern California. Therefore, tree X, which requires full sun in it's own natural range, might not do great where it gets a lot more sun somewhere else?

EDIT: I just looked and I apparently get 268 sunny days per year. Michigan gets about 170, so my uneducated guesses in my example were pretty close!

All that requires a long-winded replay. Yes, sun exposure is species-specific. Yes, southern California has more sunny days than my mid-west. That said, Detroit has 14 hours of daylight verses 13.5 for LA today, and I think that means the sun is shifted to be at a more direct angle to Detroit than LA at this time of year, and the chart shows that both receive the same intensity of 450 Wm² (watts/sq meter).

Species that require more growing days would not do as well with fewer days, but I'm unclear on the number of sunny days as being a factor we can discuss because some percentage of clear days in Detroit are below freezing and not in growing season. On the other hand, a lot of non-sunny days in LA are still growing season days. My small brain says this is a non-sequitur to our discussion. What is pertinent to having more growing days is the number of quiescent days that subtracts from the year. JM (for one) doesn't do well where the "winter" is not long enough. However, whether the problem is that, or the heat of the summer that coincidentally accompanies that, is debatable. Probably, it's a combination on a sliding scale.

I would postulate that the crispiness you get is more influenced by low humidity and drying winds and occasional higher temperatures in combination. Detroit only rarely gets to 90°F+ and when we do it's almost always accompanied by high humidity, like 80-90%+. We still have to water twice or heavily. I only experience crispiness in JM in mid-day sun (from ~11am to ~3pm) between ~June 1st and ~August 21st. SPF is a different story. They only get crispy if left un-watered. We don't have your drying winds, and we don't have your low humidity in summer. We have both in winter, but SPF don't have a problem with that. I leave others to argue that point.